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Re: [RC] [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene - Soli SorokinOn 1/9/06, Kris <aggiekris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Sounds like she is a rabicano. She may have the sabino >gene, but usuallythere is more white on the face with >that. There seems to be some sort of relationship between rabicano and sabino, though not entirely sure what. a minimal sabino can often have rabicano-type roaning, but will not breed as a rabicano, only a sabino (i.e. rabicano in offspring is always accompanied by sabino) This is true (almost all TWH sabino's show rabicano type white hairs but are also accompanied by more clear sabino patterns), but with a horse with only two white socks and minimal face white, and a mostly arabian heritage, I'd still guess rabicano over sabino, although as I originally said, it IS possible. As to the white on the face, it's possible NOT to have a lot of white, though fairly uncommon. of course, i would have to see a picture to say for sure, but sabino is a master of disguise - that's why crop-out paints are still so common. I'm guessing you are referring only to sabino patterns - Tobiano and overo do not skip a generation, and one parent must display at least minimal characteristics (which are pretty easy to identify). And only very few strains of sabino (or modifiers, as you suggest) can produce anything beyond lots of chrome. It would not be a good bet that the original poster's mare can produce a pinto coloration of any kind, based on her description, and that is what I was attempting to convey. It may be possible, IF the mare has the sabino gene, AND if that sabino gene is the type that allows for anything more than lots of chrome. And if both of those are true, then you still only have a small chance of actually producing a foal with such a pattern. There is speculation that the gene that causes overo was originally a mutation and that it continues to crop up as a mutation on a semi-regular basis in the QH breed, which is why you will occasionally get an overo out of solid QH parents. It will then breed true as a dominant trait thereafter. You can see the essay from UCDavis that mentions this here: http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/research/equine/lvmillon/overo.htm It's the same gene - these maximal sabinos can still produce the minimal sabinos seen in Arabs, as you said. The difference is caused by some sort of modifier (one of these days when i get funding, i plan on doing a project with sabino), similar to the leopard complex in Appaloosas. One gene is responsible for all 6 patterns, but as yet, no one really knows the inheritance of one pattern versus another. The sabino (or leopard) gene is resposible for opening a gate which allows whatever variant of color for which modifiers are present. So it would be a modifier on top of a modifier? Interesting theory - I hadn't heard it before and I would be interested in seeing evidence. I'm familiar with that stallion - Pusher's coat of color. He is a son of The Pusher CG, who is largely responsible for sabino in the TWH. most TWHs are NOT this loud, they look more like The Pusher. There are quite a few, but there is a large prejudice against spotted coat patterns in the show ring so they aren't being bred for except by pleasure breeders. Probably not so many outside of the South though. The filly actually had some black hairs in her coat and to simply look at her one would think she might >have been a verysunburned black, but she was most >definitely chestnut by genetic testing. Smuttiness is distinct from rabicano - don't think i've ever seen a correlation. I've heard of a correlation but not confirmed. I was merely putting it out there as a possibility since the original poster indicated some confusion on her horses' basecoat color. ~S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Soli Sorokin" <soliae@xxxxxxxxx> To: "Ridecamp" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene Sounds like she is a rabicano. She may have the sabino gene, but usually there is more white on the face with that. She does not carry the tobiano gene based on your description. Rabicano causes white hairs interspersed on the coat (and the coat is often, but not always, more "smutty" than the usual for whatever color the horse is). It also usually causes white on the tailhead and interspersed within the tail - anywhere from a few hairs to quite a few. I would not expect her to produce any significant pinto coloration in foals, but she may pass on the rabicano, or sabino if she does indeed carry it. Interestingly enough, the sabino that exists in TWH's and the one that exists in other horses, particularly arabians, seems significantly different in the possiblities for coat patterns. CMK arabians, which seem to have the greatest incidence of the Arab-type sabino, often have tall white socks and big blaze faces, often also having belly spots. But you never see a maximum-expressed sabino as you do with TWH lines that carry sabino. (This will be a foal born white, with some very minimal body spots of color). You also don't see the pseudo-tovero (tobiano-overo combination) colorations that sabino produces in TWH's but does not produce in Arabians. My guess is that these are two different genes that produce similar results and have therefore been named the same thing. I do not think there is a test for either sabino pattern. Here is a picture of a colorful sabino TWH stallion. He does not carry an overo or tobiano gene, and has sired everything from solid foals to foals with "Arab type" sabino to foals colored such as himself, out of solid mares. http://www.dawsonwalkers.com/ I did own a rabicano arab filly quite a few years ago. She was a liver chestnut, very dark, with white hairs on the flank and shoulder area and a white tailhead with a few white hairs through the tail. Her sire was black-bay and her dam was chestnut-gone-grey. Her sire was not rabicano so I presume it came from the mare, but as she was grey it was not visible. The filly actually had some black hairs in her coat and to simply look at her one would think she might have been a very sunburned black, but she was most definitely chestnut by genetic testing. ~S On 1/8/06, L gin <ladurgin@xxxxxxx> wrote:Interesting you mention this . My mare Honey is 32/34 Arabian, double registered half-arab, and Pinto BS. She is a greatgrandaughter of Khemosabi- rest is Davenport,Crabbet-some =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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