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> One thing that has not been discussed is any impact on the supply of
> endurance horses. (This is an endurance list in theory)
You are right, Ed, that this action has little impact on the sport of
endurance.  But read on with regard to the rest of your post...

>  A  closed registry only allows registration of horses where both
> parents are  registered.   The implication is that by excluding other
> horses, the  registered horses are somehow "better". (Note: do not flame
> me yet.) At some  point in the past, all registries had to be open to
> the addition of horses,  where the ancestry could not be documented by
> written records. The lovers of  the Arabian horse tend to claim that all
> Arabian horses can/should be  traceable, in all lines, to horses that
> were found on the deserts.  Supposedly, the oral records, and the
> remoteness of the desert prevented any  change in the gene pool for many
> thousands of years.
>
> This is most likely only true to a point   Ever since the domestication
> of  the horse it has been used by armies. The Middle East has been
> fought over  since before civilization. I find it hard to believe that
> during all of  these wars, no foreign stallion was captured or escaped
> and bred mares on  the desert.
This is a very valid point, and one that causes me to question the
religious fervor with which some defend the "pure" Arabians from a few
desert lines.  That said, there is genetic value in maintaining those
lines as free as practicably possible from other influences, simply to
keep them as a source for the future.  (And most of the breeders of such
that I know, like Becky, etc., are doing it for this reason, not because
the "impurity" is going to be some sort of a "stain" on future
generations.)  And it is to this end that I would dispute your statement
that registration in a breed is for the purpose of defining a horse as
"better" than another horse.

> If the measure of purity is in low variation of the gene pool in the
> breeding population, then excessive purity in a breed of horses can be
> undesirable. We all know that if a gene pool becomes to small then the
> future of that population of animals is bleak. Without genetic variation
> no  change or improvement in a breed is possible.
This is true--but the Arabian breed as it stands today has more genetic
variation than any other breed going.  The TB is down to two sire lines. 
The Arabian still has something like 15, and even our entities within the
breed such as CMK boast something like 6 sire lines.  (I have at least
four sire lines just in my own breeding program--more variation than the
entire TB breed.  And more dam lines, as well.)  So this argument doesn't
apply to the Arabian anywhere near what it does to other more modern
breeds.

> Registries exist for a number of reasons and perform a number of
> functions.  Some of these functions are very useful, others are less
> useful and can even  have unintended detrimental effects.
>
> Registries provide a convenient central place to record breedings and
> ancestors. This is good. All careful breeders need the guidance of
> records.
Indeed.  And the Registry is a better repository for same than relying on
"stud books" (which literally means "breeding farm books") of individual
breeders.

> Promotion of a breed is needed and a good thing.  For this reason
> registries  usually define characteristics (size, type, color etc) and
> in some way limit  what horses can be included.  Most usually it is by
> ancestry, but other  criteria, like color, can be applied either singly
> or in combination with  ancestry.
This can be a good thing, but can also be a detrimental thing.  Virtually
every breed today has had its most visible aspects terribly altered by the
show ring and by the publicity arms of the various breed organizations. 
This has actually been a serious detriment to those who try to breed good
riding horses.  So this is an aspect that can cut both ways.

> The story gets muddy when vested interests develop who will obtain
> financial  benefit from a closed registry and limits the gene pool.
Yep--but hold that thought--and move into your next premise.

> One of the ways that rich owners of Arabian horses make money is by
> selling  horses outside of the country of origin. To make this easy,
> there should be  agreements that any horse registered with any Arabian
> organization can be  registered with any other. So far no problem. The
> problem arose because the  people who founded some Arabian registries
> had different ideas as to what  horses to let in. In some cases it is
> likely that they decided to follow the  golden rule and let in the
> horses owned by the person who had the gold.
This is PRECISELY the muddiness you spoke of above.  Skip down a paragraph.

> Careful breeders will see absolutely no effect. If a breeder does not
> want  these genes in his/her program he/she just doesn't breed to these
> individuals. Of course, a casual uninformed breeder may be duped into
> breeding to one of these horses. In all likelihood, if a breeder does
> not  know how to evaluate a pedigree, they will make poor decisions no
> matter how  carefully "impure" horses are kept out of the registry. We
> all know that one  can not expect to pick a registered Arabian horse at
> random mate it with  another Arabian horse picked at random and get a
> superior individual.
Very true.

> People, who show in all Arab shows, will most likely see no effect. If
> these  horses are truly not good Arabs because of the disputed
> ancestors, they will  be beaten at the shows and the bloodlines will die
> out. If the horses with  disputed ancestry win, then perhaps the breed
> does need those genes.
Herein lies the fallacy of your statement.  Good Arabs do not win in the
show ring.  Extremes win in the show ring.  And given where the pressure
has come from to ramrod this change, I will just about bet you breakfast
that these horses WILL win in the American show ring.  Our show ring has
tried to make Arabs look like Welsh ponies, it has tried to make them look
like Saddlebreds, it has tried to make them look like cartoon characters. 
And since it is the folks with the bucks who are wanting these horses, and
also the folks with the bucks who influence the choice of who is to judge,
it is almost a certainty that these horses will win in the show ring. 
(And remember, the ancestry of these horses is not in dispute--it is
perfectly clear.  It simply isn't Arabian.)

> People, who want horses that can excel in endurance and CTR, will never
> see  any effect. We are looking for lines and breeders that produce
> endurance  horses. Those of us who carefully pick our prospects already
> have different  criteria than the show people. These criteria often
> cause us to deliberately  purchase or breed the ultimate "impure" Arab,
> the half Arab.
Again, you are right that it isn't the distance scene that will change. 
We deal in open competition, so if we breed purebreds, we have to breed
them to be functional (which was an integral part of Arabian "type"
originally), and if we choose, we can openly breed partbreds.  Nobody will
sneer at you if you simply call your horse what he really is-- which could
well be a part-Arab, or purtnear anything else.

Heidi



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