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FW: [RC] A horse worth having - Mike SherrellNicely put. I really like what you said about a horse learning judgment. A smart, analytic horse is a treasure. The best horses are eventually able to generalize from their experiences, so that less and less novelty upsets them. I think what makes a horse do what it's told is really a combination in ratios of three factors, the ratios varying from horse to horse: very early on it fought and lost (although it is likely to retest, it is likely to test with decreasing determination); in all the time since then, when it has indicated a preference to do otherwise the human has bothered it by one means or another, such as shaking the leadline, banging its side with their heels, whatever, until it gave in; and third, in all the time since then it has also found that 49 times out of 50, going along either gets it something it wants, such as being led back into the corral with the other horses, or at least doesn't hurt it, such as going past the scary log -- consistency lays the foundation. Regards, Mike Sherrell Grizzly Analytical (USA) www.grizzlyanalytical.com 707 887 2919; fax = 707 887 9834 -----Original Message----- From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Diane Trefethen Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:14 PM To: Ridecamp Subject: Re: [RC] A horse worth having Mike Sherrell wrote: If humans disciplined their children as mercilessly as horses do their youngsters, the world would be populated by criminals and sociopaths. I believe that Mike misspoke when he said "mercilessly" and that his respondents misunderstood when they translated "mercilessly" into "violently". Mares do discipline "relentlessly". Once they decide to discipline, "No" is not a viable answer from their offspring. They give a cue. If it is ignored, they repeat the cue more emphatically. They don't need to rise to the level of brutality because their babies have learned from past experience that when Mom says "Move over", she doesn't mean sometime tomorrow. She means now. Like Mike, I wish more human parents were as "firm". There'd be fewer supermarket tantrums - boy I hate seeing those whining, demanding brats. As for herd dynamics, when a more dominant horse tells (not asks, NEVER asks) a less dominant horse to move, the lesser horse moves or gets cued again. Unlike with mare and foal, the adult alpha will not stop escalating the cue, even up to an attack with teeth and hooves because a horse who won't follow the rules of the herd is a liability and cannot be tolerated. I agree with Kat that training Male style is often more about force than training Female style but I disagree with her that females don't use physical force. I also disagree with her about a horse not having been overpowered. I think the connotation of that word obscures the concept. The connotation raises a picture of violent or great force being exerted on the horse when the fact is usually closer to the horse being the one to exert force and the human offering resistance. For instance, I had a very willful filly. When being led, if she decided she didn't want to, she would pull away from you and run off. Notice, SHE was the one exerting brute force. Then my friend's husband gave her a lesson in leading. As per normal, she pulled away but he was over 6' and at about 200#, not a lot less in weight than she. She dragged him a short ways till he got an angle on her and then she stopped to look at him. She tried to get away several times that day, always fruitlessly, and over the next week, he was the only one to lead her and she never got away. That was the end of her pulling away, no matter WHO was leading her. Had she been overpowered? Brutalized into submission? Hardly. But she was shown that SHE couldn't do those things to a human and succeed at getting her way. Broken spirit? If you ever met Ruby, that is not how you would describe that mare. What she really learned was what all parents want to teach their young... judgment. When to do something, how to do something, when to exert force, when to be quiet and wait for things to unfold. Ruby was smart and strong-willed and thanks to that early lesson in the use of force, she was on the road to being wise too. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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