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Re: [RC] Punishing Pulls - kimfuess

So if AERC started using Jim's system does this mean that every metabolic pull would be treated the same? So if I decide my horse is tired at a vet check and pull would this be counted against my record just like a pull from me thrashing my horse?

It seems a little unreasonable with the system we have set up in AERC that EVERY metabolic pull would be treated the same. So the pull for a horse that doesn't feel quite right would be treated the same as the horse that was thrashed by his rider? I can guarantee that if I thought I was going to be punished for a M pull that I would do everything possible to avoid that....maybe even stay in competition when I would normally pull myself if I thought my horse was getting tired or not quite right. I really don't want to be in a position where a "possible" punishment down the road might effect my judgement

If this system were put into place, I guess I would have to stop using competitions as training or conditioning. There are many times I will enter a horse in a 50 or even a 100 just to see how far the horse gets. I enter the rides really not expecting to finish. If I end up pulling in the competition it is ususally for metabolics not lameness in these cases.

Not judging whether Jim's idea would be a good or bad idea, I wonder if a system like this would change the very nature of AERC endurance. I know other countries use this system. It probably works really well in nations where a competition is really a "race" and where riders are expected to perform at a certain level before they enter the "race". I am not sure how this type of consequence would work in AERC with the way it is set up.

I am pretty sure I have had two M pulls in a row and I am not sure how being banned from competition would have made a difference in my attitude or my riding. What I do know is that if Jim's system was in place I probably would not have entered those rides and would not have gained the wealth of knowledge that helped me fine tune the issues with my horse. I am pretty sure that I could not have done that in training. I learned a lot from those pulls and I can honestly say that I don't think my horse suffered from me causing the M pull.

I commend Jim for his excellent record but I am not sure that punishing metabolic pulls is going to get the results hoped for. It is really funny that when I think of riders who I feel ride irresponsibly, it is rarely the ones that get pulled or pull themselves. But I ride in a different region than you, Jim, so my experience may be quite different than what you see.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Eric Rueter" <eric@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Jim Holland" <lanconn@xxxxxxx>; "'Ridecamp'" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [RC] A Much Better Proposal


They have some incentive to enter a ride and spend a couple hundred bucks to get two and from and upwards to a hundred buck to enter. If all they wanted to do was to be abusive - they could do that on their own back yard.
They get no credit for anything, just like they weren't there plus it would trigger a call from the HWC and hence they would be "in the system."

If the system was in place and well publicized the rider/owner would know that they are suspended. One knows when they have Y metabolic pulls in X months or Z rides or whatever the criteria was.

Truman


Eric Rueter wrote:
Agreed, EXCEPT...The abused horse has already been ridden at the point where the infraction is detected (when the ride manager sends in the results and the office records them) maybe multiple times. By the time the horse / rider are caught up with, they may have several rides in. (actually I bet DocO or KenM would catch them before the paper work does).
Just my opinion that it would be hard to police. What would be the penalty, no miles? Do you really think that anyone that is that abusive really cares about milage?

Truman Prevatt writes:
Eric,
I feel your pain ;-) . Ride managers have enough to worry about - especially if this ill conceived 30 minute hold goes into effect.
However, what Jim proposes would not have to impact RM's one bit. The process to detect the individuals and/or horses could be automated and the enforcement could even be automated. All the information that is needed is in the database. Once a week a program could be run to identify the individuals and/or horses that fall into the category - the category has to be well defined so it is well understood.
These that do - would not be able get credit for any ride for the predetermined period of time. That too could be automated. The RM need not have any responsibility in policing a suspension. They send the the results as normal. If a suspended rider / horse is on the list of starters they get no credit and a call from the HWC.
Computers are very good at doing this sort of thing.
Truman
Eric Rueter wrote:
Jim,
On the surface this sounds good, but who polices it? Would it be up to the already "over-worked" ride manager to determine that the horse / rider was on "suspension"? You can't let the office do it, because they would always be "behind".
thanx eric
Jim Holland writes:
However you "tweak" it, the result of this type of rule would be that AERC
would target ONLY those riders who are consistently riding their horses into
metabolic distress and/or horses that probably should not BE endurance
horses. It is totally transparent to the rank and file Endurance rider.
In addition, no "judgment call" has to be made by any AERC committee or
official as to whether John did or didn't override his horse. If he gets
the metabolic pulls, he's gone. Knowing what will happen is a pretty good
deterrent.
This proposed 30 minute rule not only impacts every Endurance rider out
there for an unknown potential benefit, but creates potential logistical
problems for ride management and the vet crew.
JMHO...
Jim, Sun of Dimanche+, and Mahada Magic
Richard T. "Jim" Holland
Three Creeks Farm
175 Hells Hollow Drive
Blue Ridge, Ga 30513
(706) 258-2830
www.threecreeksarabians.com
Callsign KI4BEN
-----Original Message-----
From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of k s swigart
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:15 PM
To: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [RC] A Much Better Proposal
Jim Holland said: 
"If John Jones and Dobbin get a metabolic pull,
then Dobbin cannot compete in another ride for
a month. If Dobbin gets a 2nd metabolic pull, he is
done for the year. If John Jones on ANY horse
gets 3 metabolic pulls in a ride season, he is done
for the rest of that season."


I, personally, think this is a much better proposal for ensuring the
welfare of horses; although I would change it slightly such that it
would be John Jones who cannot compete on Dobbin in another ride for a
month or a year (somebody else may be able to better manage Dobbin
during a ride). However, if Dobbin gets three pulls under any rider,
then it should, indeed, be Dobbin who has to take the break.
kat
Orange County, Calif.
:)


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Eric Rueter
Rueter Consulting, Inc.
865.599.3594(C)
865.988.4134(W)
865.986.5966(H)
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Eric Rueter
Rueter Consulting, Inc.
865.599.3594(C)
865.988.4134(W)
865.986.5966(H)



--

“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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Replies
RE: [RC] A Much Better Proposal, Jim Holland
Re: [RC] A Much Better Proposal, Eric Rueter
Re: [RC] A Much Better Proposal, Truman Prevatt
Re: [RC] A Much Better Proposal, Eric Rueter
Re: [RC] A Much Better Proposal, Truman Prevatt