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Re: [RC] [RC] Palominos - Soli SorokinTo put it more clearly, a horse that is heterozygous for the Cream gene, AND is a chestnut will be a palomino, but only has a 50% chance of passing that Cream gene on to the offspring. Whether or not the offspring will be palomino does not depend on the Cream gene alone - rather the base color of the horse as well as whether the Cream gene is passed on. Palominos are chestnuts with the Cream gene. A horse that is black can carry the Cream gene without showing it (because the Cream gene has no effect on black), and can produce palomino offspring if he is heterozygous for black (meaning that he also carries one copy of the chestnut gene). A bay horse that inherits the Cream gene will be buckskin. Since there are clear tests for the Cream gene, it is a bit silly and misleading that the color registries allow registration for horses that do not carry the gene that causes said color. A common thing with the show people here in TN with the walking horses is to dye the mane and tail lighter for a more "dramatic" effect for their chestnut horses. I guess lots of those chestnuts could be registered as palomino, too. You can usually tell the difference, as a chestnut horse with dyed mane and tail will have a more red body, whereas a true palomino is generally gold or if smutty, will have more brownish-gold hairs. To further complicate things, there is an additional dilute gene that causes a palomino-like coloration but is NOT the Cream gene. It's called champagne, and will dilute a chestnut coat to one very similar to palomino, but it will also dilute a black coat to something resembling buckskin. It's most common in TWH's but is found in QH's, drafts, and miniatures as well. Like Cream, it is a dominant gene, but unlike Cream, in its homozygous form there is no outward appearance difference. Homozygous Cream horses are cremellos and perlinos, or smokey creams. (chestnut, bay, and black base coats). Homozygous champagne horses are the same in appearance as heterozygous. There is no genetic test for champagne yet, but there are very clear signs to differentiate between Cream and champagne, including eye color (Champagnes are born with blue-green eyes that turn to hazel-amber as it ages), skin color (champagnes are born with pink skin that will mottle as it ages - palominos are also often born with pink skin but it rapidly turns grey/black without mottling) and foal color (champagnes are often born very dark, almost their natural base color, and lighten thereafter). Champagnes are also often a metallic glowing color when under sunlight, which is difficult to capture on film. Champagne on a black base coat is called "classic champagne", on a bay it is called "amber champagne" and on chestnut is called "gold champagne." Amber and classic are usually very difficult to tell apart without genetic testing for the agouti gene. Some TWH's exist that have both a champagne gene and a Cream gene, and these are often mistaken for cremellos when they have a chestnut base coat, as a horse with both these genes will look very much like one, even though it is not homozygous for either. They are calling these "ivory champagnes", the version on back or bay seems to be called "classic ivory" - these look much like a buttermilk/silver buckskin. This is a photo showing the light colored eyes and coloration of a champagne. This horse is probably a classic, although he was listed as an amber, and also carries the tobiano gene. He does not carry a Cream gene. http://www.vcommunities.net/Denhead.jpg Next link is a homozygous gold champagne TWH stallion. While there is no tests for this, he is out of two champagne parents and has sired all champagne foals over ten years. He does not carry the Cream gene. http://www.brownridgefarm.com/wdancer.htm There are tons of thumbnails of champagne horses at the ICHR, which requires extensive photographs of horses to show known characteristics of the champagne gene for registration. http://www.ichregistry.com/studbook_p1_0001-0050.htm ~S On 1/7/06, Diane Trefethen <tref@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: A long time ago I read that Palominos don't breed true. The problem is that there are two genes involved in Palomino coloring, or more correctly, two Alleles at the Cream locus. A Palomino has Allele C and Allele C[Cr] where C = normal color and C[Cr] = Cream color. Each parent can only contribute one Allele. Half the time a Palomino will contribute C and half the time C[Cr]. When you breed two Palominos, C-C[Cr], the statistical probabilities are C-C (25%)=normal color, C[Cr]-C[Cr] (25%)=Cream color, and C-C[Cr] (50%)=Palomino color. For more than you want to know about color genetics see: http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatcolor/coatclr3.html#fig2a While a C-C[Cr] could be considered the only "true" Palomino, the only two Palomino registries I could find in the United States will both register on just color as is evidenced by BOTH accepting purebred Arabians. As Dawn has noted, an Arabian cannot have the C[Cr] Allele, aka "dilute gene", therefore, the horses both registries are accepting must be chestnuts with a) body color that falls within the acceptable limits for registration as a Palomino and b) flaxen manes and tails with no more than 15% colored hairs interspersed among the white/silver hairs. The two registries are: Palomino Horse Association Route 1. Box 125 Nelson, MO 65347. and Palomino Horse Breeders of America, Inc. 15253 E. Skelly Drive Tulsa, OK 74116-2637 As noted above, breeding a Palomino to another Palomino should result in only 50% of the foals being Palomino. On the other hand, both chestnut coloring and flaxen mane/tails result from recessive genes so if you breed two flaxen maned chestnuts, the result, barring mutation, will always be a flaxen maned chestnut.* *http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/recessive_color_genes.htm http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/palomino_or_flaxen_chestnut.htm =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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