Re: DEPRESSED GELDING

["Tracey" <tracey@tbt.co.za>]

Dear Robyn,

>O.K. there are some training issues to be resolved.>


Oh, God, I sense a dissertation looming about the wonders of natural
horsemanship.  Just promise me you're not into the birdie theory.


>>I had a gelding exactly  like this.>>


Bet he wasn't as handsome.


>>He would literally try to kill my other gelding when turned out with the
mares. It was a SERIOUS PROBLEM. In his first endurance rides he would try
and charge at any other horses that got in his space. That did not last very
long though. You have to do whatever you can, growl at them, whatever it
takes, to get their attention on YOU. He needs to learn that this is not
acceptable behavior anytime under saddle. It is dangerous for you!>>

No, it is not dangerous for me, because when I'm on his back I am in
control.  It is dangerous for the pillocks on their pretty ponies who say
"just let them say hello, he'll be fine" as they thrust their mounts faces
into Toc's and then scream in disgust when he rips their lip open.


Moreover, he is not necessarily worse when mares are around.  He will try to
round up mares and herd them away (with their foals, to whom he is actually
very sweet).  He IS worse when I'm around.  He hates other horses to be near
me.


>>I suggest doing a lot of ground work if you have a hard time convincing
your horse under saddle.   If you don't have his attention on the ground you
aren't going to have it under saddle. Also, have a buddy help you work other
horses around him.>>


He is always schooled around other horses.  I used to stable at a very
competitive yard, when there were up to eight horses in the ring at a time.
I can get him to focus on me.  At shows, it is a bit harder because of the
aforementioned pillocks.

My main objective here was to make it more pleasant to ride out - I can't
ever really relax as he will lash out with a foot / teeth - and to enable me
to paddock my two geldings together.  The dP has worked, in this regard.  I
was worried that it might have caused his depression, but the blood tests
have indicated that it has not, that he has probably been fighting an
unsymptomatic, low-grade virus.


>>There are a lot of great natural horsemanship/ behaviorist trainers out
there like Harry Whitney, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt . . . >>

Damn.  I hate it when this happens.

>>As far as the (pasture?) situation with other horses   . . . here is the
solution that worked for me. . . Just realize that nothing you do will
change the personality of your gelding, and there are no training methods
that will carry over how he behaves in the pasture when you are not around
to intervene.>>


The dP HAS done exactly that.


>>What I did is I temporarily removed the mares from the equation. I found a
friend that would keep the mares for a few weeks. After a few days, my
gelding  realized that the mares were gone and calmed down.>>

I don't have any mares.  Unless you count me.


>>At that time, I gradually began reintroducing my other gelding. Horses are
extremely social
animals and crave companionship.>>

Not Toc.  He once forced me to trek home alone from a trail ride, because he
didn't like the path the other twenty horses had taken, and preferred the
other one, which he was quite happy to toodle along on his own.  He likes to
be able to SEE other horses, but he has "issues" with personal space.


>>The first postive sign was a  reduction in my gelding's degree of
aggression (i.e., not charging at the other horse, no teeth baring, etc.)
Once this occurred, I put the two in adjacent paddocks and eventually in a
paddock together.>>

They've been in adjacent paddocks and adjacent stables for six months.


>>Only if and when they have formed a successful bond should you try
bringing the mares back, and not in a time when any of them are in season!>>

The problem is that Toc just does not bond with other horses.  He never has.
Given a choice between playing with them in the paddock or falling asleep
with his nose in my lap, he'll pick the lap.  He's bonded with me and
decided that I'm his pasture-buddy, and that's all there is to it.


>>What you need to understand is that the horse's brain that needs to be
trained. A drug is only masking the problem. I personally do not believe in
drugs to solve my problems. I am sorry, I just feel very strongly about
that.   Unfortunately, that is the first thing that a lot of  vets push when
the horse has a problem.  > >


I don't like going the drug route either, but I've had this horse for 4 1/2
years, and the longer I've had him and the more I've bonded with him, the
worse he has got towards other horses.  I didn't immediately opt for the
needle, but having watched him take chunks out of PG at every opportunity, I
thought I owed it to PG to do something.


>>Why would you want to chance it. ALL drugs have potential side effects and
can damage the liver among other things. It's been my experience with drugs
that a lot of times you aim to solve 1 problem and then it in turn creates 5
or 10 OTHER problems. I am sure we have some good vets like Heidi out there
on this forum that can help you out here.  Again, you have to go back to
square one and ask yourself what really is this horse's problem? It is his
"brain" that needs to be trained.> >


I think I've answered your question, and no disrespect to Heidi, but my vet
has been treating my horse for almost five years, since before I got him,
and knows what I have to deal with.  He also knows that I hate using drugs,
and was loathe to suggest the dP as a result.  However, it has curbed Toc's
aggression.


As far as "brain" training is concerned, my horse is a very bright,
independent individual, at whom more than one instructor (some riding at top
level) have thrown their arms up in despair, because he just doesn't abide
by any rules.  I love him because of that, and have managed, despite that
fact, to turn him into a wonderful ride, who will safely let kids climb on
board or underneath him, and once stopped dead on the trail because a ginger
kitten was frozen between his front legs (he stood like a rock while I
climbed off and moved the cat).  I don't think there is any more "brain"
training I can do, and honestly believe that it won't help as the more I
work with him, the closer we bond and the more aggressive he is towards
other horses.  I suppose I could go for the old "establish Alpha status"
approach, but it's not in my nature, and I think that, by dominating him to
such a degree, I would be altering his personality as effectively as the dP.


Thank you for your insight.  It was thought-provoking, and your methods may
be suitable for someone else on the list battling with similar problems.  My
circumstances are different, however.


Hlala Gahle,
Tracey
'