Re: Re: one of your type discussions on ridecamp now

["Michelle Rowe" <michrowe@frontier.net>]

Ok, I've read my basic college Zoology text book.  Can you or someone
recommend other books to learn more about metabolics?  I saw some author's
names fly by in an earlier post, but can you give the book names?  I'm
interested in learning more about this.

Thanks -

m
(aka michelle rowe)
colorado
http://www.redwrench.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com>
To: <Tivers@aol.com>; <Michael.Maul@nsc.com>; <Ridecamp@endurance.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:36 AM
Subject: RC: Re: one of your type discussions on ridecamp now


> In a message dated 12/16/99 12:47:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tivers
writes:
>
> << Ok, let's examine this statement. Please explain how 4 ounces of
> sugar/chromium every two hours during a ride compromises gut functin and
> results in serious repercussions to the horse.  >>
>
> I didn't say that four ounces WOULD shut it down.  (In fact, you didn't
give
> your doseage in prior posts--or if you did, I missed it.)  My complaint is
in
> your inference that the same four ounces will fuel the entire horse--as in
> your statement that carbs will replace other sources of nutrition.  Please
> explain THAT.
>
> <<Nothing is foolhardy until proven incorrect. Thus far, we've seen
nothing
> but benefit from supplementing fast acting carbs during a ride and all
these
> trials have been timid, at best.>>
>
> Did I say you weren't seeing benefit from small supplements of carbs??
No, I
> did not.  You are confusing me with someoone else.  What I said was that
you
> were leaving VFA's and normal gut function out of the equation with your
> inferences that carbs are the entire story.  But the key here is that the
> carbs at the level you are adding ARE indeed a supplement to the normal
> process that is (according to sources which more academic sorts have
listed
> for you in this forum in previous discussions and which I'm sure you can
find
> in the archives if you really care about references on this subject) up to
> half VFA's and half carbs in the normal aerobic athlete.
>
> <<You're extrapolating dire results with absolutely no empirical evidence
> other than bad dreams. >>
>
> If you want to call the nightmares one has after treating horses whose
> roughage intake has been ignored "bad dreams" you have a point.  But the
> cases that trigger them and the feeding programs that triggered them were
> real.  You forget, Tom--I'm not an academic, but an old field hack who
asks
> lots of questions about horses that crash and horses that don't.  I'm not
> trying to say that what you are doing is bad--I'm just trying to give the
> audience the benefit of the knowledge that there has to be a sound
> roughage-based diet FIRST before you start adding your supplements and
that
> they are not a substitute for a sound nutritional approach to the
sport--but,
> rather, a supplement.  Is that so difficult for you?
>
> <<> Both are utilized, and both must be considered.  You are correct that
> feeding fat slows digestion--not once in this discussion have I suggested
> feeding fat on race day.>
>
> Good. That was the old fad. Now it's hay, the new fad.>>
>
> Hay is not, and has never been, a fad.  It has been the staple of the
horse
> since the horse evolved on the grasslands of Asia, and since his
forerunners
> evolved on the grasslands of North America.  His entire digestive process
has
> evolved to utilize roughage.  That is the point you seem to want to
ignore.
> As for fat--although your point about the problems of feeding fat on race
day
> is correct, the general feeding of fat has well-documented advantages--in
> both the aerobic AND the anaerobic athlete.  But then you didn't choose to
> read the references given you in past times in this forum, so I guess
there's
> no point in referring you once again to the archives where the academics
with
> the references at their fingertips have listed them for you again and
again
> and again.  But perhaps others reading the discussion are more willing to
> learn and might be willing to look them up, since Steph has so kindly
> provided archives for this forum...
>
> <<Ok, do you have numbers on the percentage of weight of roughage that
> eventually becomes viable energy,  say, 36 hours after ingestion? Lon
Lewis
> says "not much". Maybe you have a more informed source I can study. >>
>
> Perhaps some of those references do.  That isn't a number that has stuck
in
> my mind.  The take-home lesson, though, from the research is that nearly
half
> of the energy utilized by the aerobic athlete is in the form of VFA's
coming
> from the gut, from that very roughage.  Can't remember which ones gave
actual
> percentages on the energy from VFA's--may have been Hintz and others.  As
to
> Lon Lewis and roughage--perhaps YOU should go back and study him--he
> certainly doesn't advocate replacing hay with carbs.  I believe it was
Sarah
> Ralston, DVM (and aren't you also a PhD in nutrition, Sarah?) who gave you
a
> long list of references from Lewis backing up the concept that the diet
MUST
> be hay-based and that a great deal of energy comes from it.  Lewis has
kept
> up--his more current work is not the same as what he was putting out 20
years
> ago.  But then that's what happens when people continue to research and
learn.
>
> <<Again, the only change I'm suggesting is the addition of a carbohydrate
> supplement--which will shift energy metabolism toward glucose/glycogen
> dramatically. You can feed all the hay, and water, you want for gut
motility.
> But the VFAs will become nexrt to useless with the carb supp.>>
>
> Well, SO glad you're finally admitting that you won't change the basic
diet.
> Thank you.  As to making the VFA's useless--they will still be there, even
if
> you shift the percentage somewhat with your carbs.  And they will still
> provide a steady state of material for the Krebs cycle, whether you want
to
> acknowledge that or not.
>
> <<Nope. You go too far. I'll go along with the gut motility theory, even
> though I believe that dehydration is a more important factor in loss of
gut
> motility than any hay intake during a ride--but I'll go along just to be
> pleasant. However, VFA production has nothing to do with "hills and
valleys"
> of blood glucose in carbohydrate supplemented horses. >>
>
> You're right--it's the glucose that causes the hills-and-valleys, not the
> VFA's.  They are a much more steady-state source.  And oh, yes--timing is
> everything, you said.  Darn--this course just doesn't have a vet check at
the
> place where I need to stop and supplement carbs--guess I'll have to stop
and
> get off and give them, and watch my competition disappear over the hill...
> Yeah, yeah, jump all over me that that's an extreme.  And you're right.
But
> the point is that endurance does not always lend itself well to "timing"
and
> thus some emphasis on a nutritional plan where "timing" means making sure
the
> horse has a good gut fill for 48-72 hours BEFORE the ride is still
beneficial.
>
> <<Snaark.  You know me, anything that enrages a Poobah with a pet,
embedded,
> theory to protect brings a blossom of joy to my heart. >>
>
> Yes, Tom, we know that all too well.  Which is why it gets kind of old
when
> you present your ideas in exaggerated terms to push people's buttons
instead
> of just saying hey, this is a supplemental approach that can help if you
are
> careful to do it right.  You go far beyond Poobahs, and you undermine
support
> that you would have from sensible, well-rounded folks if you would keep
the
> perspective of the whole horse in your discussions.  I know you get a big
> charge out of these debates.  I personally think they are a boring waste
of
> time, but I do feel that the readers in this forum deserve to see the
whole
> picture.
>
> Heidi
>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
> Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.    
Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp   
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=