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> Certainly proper diet, natural living conditions,

 

Natural living conditions can cause Founder if we do not do some things to prevent it... as some people think Natural means being out on a 90 acres pasture 24/7, I Do not believe in that at all... I think you might want to explain more carefully what you mean by natural as that is a misleading remark... I think I said living conditions, not Natural, if I used that word, I am sorry...

 I don't think my dry hillside covered with rocks and sagebrush qualifies as the sort of pasture you are talking about.  My mares and youngsters cover several acres, travel from forage to water and back, and are certainly not in any danger of founder, although they are in good weight.

and proper trimming will benefit ALL horses.  But it will NOT necessarily mean that they
> can REMAIN barefoot safely when the wear exceeds the growth!  

 

That is what boots are made for... I put boots on for less then 2 hours this year... only cause I thought I would see how he moved in them.... not cause I thought he was sore, but, I did worry about him getting sore, as conditions at home were wet, I needed to get more gravel, and we were riding 15 miles on gravel, hard packed gravel trails... so to be on the safe side I slipped them on about half way through the ride, we gaited fast for more then an hour, I soon forgot he had them on he moved so well in them... I was surprised to tell you the truth, as I am not a boot person either... but I carry them, just in case...

 Well, at least you're being honest--yes, horses do sometimes require hoof protection if they are ridden in conditions where there is apt to be excessive wear.

Debbie, I
> don't know very many people (except in show barns) that shoe horses
> until they reach that point.  
 

You are kidding right??? most people automatically shoe a horse as a 2 year old, certainly by 3... the feet are not done growing till 5 or 6, and they shoe them... yikes...

No, I am not kidding.  The vast majority of horses anywhere I've ever been have not been shod until they reach a point under saddle where the wear exceeds the growth.  The exceptions to this in my experience have been show barns, where what you describe does indeed happen--and I agree, it is a damaging practice.  But it really isn't the norm.

Ours certainly are raised out, and we
> don't have to "import" gravel because they are on abrasive and rocky
> ground a good portion of the year.  

 

I do have to import Gravel... I wish I did not, but I do, I ride on gravel, so I have to make our black dirt more like the trails I ride on... It has made a huge difference for our horses... funny, when I order it, they haulers are all so surprised where it is going... you can not put this in for horses, is a common comment, I say, I sure can and have for years.... my horses have healthy feet... I bought a horse last summer who I have transitioned to Barefoot... the Seller almost did not sell him to me, cause I am a barefoot rider, he is doing great!!!! but it was not easy, he had horrible FFS, forward foot syndrome from wearing shoes for years... He was a challenge for me, but I can say, I am successful so far... For him, I have chosen the trails carefully, as transitioning takes time and consistent trimming...

 

In other words, he was not properly shod.  Why is it that some people simply lump all shoeing together, instead of understanding that improper shoeing is bad, just as improper trimming is bad?  FWIW, I've been involved in correcting many cases of poor feet due to improper shoeing--but have done so by PROPER shoeing. 

 

NOBODY on this place gets shod
> until the wear exceeds the growth.  

 

I find this an interesting concept, not something I have found to be true for me...

 

What part of that statement have you "not found to be true"--since it is simply a statement of the management on my place, of which you have no first-hand knowledge? 

I have 50 horses here, and only
> three are wearing shoes.  But guess what--those are the three that are
> being ridden enough to do endurance.

 

> Shoeing isn't something that most of us do as just a knee-jerk
> reaction--it is something we do so that even the well-managed barefoot
> horse can go further and longer without doing damage to himself.

 

Personally I believe the moment you put a nail in a hoof you have damaged the hoof wall... and done damage to the horse.. but, that is my opinion...
 

Sure you do.  But properly done, the damage is so minimal that it is well worth the benefits.  Do you honestly believe that it does NOT damage hoof walls to go cantering over rocks?  If so, I've got some oceanfront property up here in central Idaho that might interest you....

 

> Simply telling people that if they never shoe and if they pay attention
> to the things you mention, they won't have problems is just plain not
> responsible.

 

I guess we agree to disagree, cause I believe with the education of people, proper foot care, proper diet, good living arrangements and conditioning that most horses can be successful barefoot... I did not say they would not have problems, there is a learning curve for going barefoot, just as there is for owning a horse... it is change it is different, and it does take commitment, I do wish more people Raised their horses to be barefoot horses... I think that barefoot is a mindset that is different then the oh, if they are sore, I will put shoes on mindset, I think a barefoot mindset figures out what needs to change.. what piece am I missing... I think Endurance people already are doing this in many aspects of training and riding in Races... I commend your tenacity... I admire the people who ride in endurance races... someday, I hope to be there,

 

 

I am also a firm believer in education--and that includes an honest education about what happens to feet.  You are assuming that people who shoe wait for horses to be sore--nothing could be further from the truth.  People shoe so horses don't GET sore in the first place.  When the wear begins to exceed the growth, you either have to stop riding or protect the feet--if you wait for them to become sore (which, BTW, MANY barefoot horses on endurance rides are VERY sore, but since they are sore all the way around, they don't limp--and I personally abhor the sort of "mindset" that thinks that that is ok) then you really are missing the boat.

3 years ago, I wish I had entered Jewel, we were ready that summer, we rode 5-6 days a week, 2-6 hours a day, all barefoot... sigh, I am working more now and riding less, darn...

 

I am not sure if most people know that the look of a good performance barefoot hoof vs a shod hoof in most instances is very different, one cannot do a traditional pasture trim and call that a barefoot trim, it very well may not work...

 

I grew up in an Arabian show barn, I watched the farrier, I was always there holding horses as he trimmed and shod them with in the guidelines of the Arabian show world... but that LOOK is not what I go for now.. a high performance barefoot trim is completely different from what I grew up with....

 

Well, those of us that ride seriously are not after the sort of shoeing that you saw in the show barns, either.  I think you need to educate yourself about PROPER shoeing practices, and not simply equate all shoeing with what you saw in show barns. 

> If YOU choose to limit your riding to what your horse's hoof growth is,
> that is certainly YOUR perogative.  (And that IS what you are doing.)

 

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT I AM DOING??? I can trim my horse before and after a ride... so I think you are completely wrong on that comment... I spend a lot of time conditioning my horses, the only thing that limits me is WINTER, I hate winter, and end up having to start out slow in the spring, conditioning myself and my horses, I hate that...

 

I simply responded to your own statements. 

And I don't have any problems with that.  But that is NOT what many
> folks want to do.  And to suggest that they can is misleading.

 

But they can...  you said it perfectly, it is not what MOST FOLKS WANT TO DO,  but if the WANTED TO, they could... if I with a bad back, a poor foot and ankle and overweight can learn to do this, anyone can... it really is a commitment on my part, it takes a lot of study and time, but for me, it is worth it... now, I will say, that not all people will make that commitment... but to suggest that I am being misleading is certainly the wrong word in my opinion...

 

I wasn't talking about the human limitations--I was talking about the equine limitations.  And I stick by what I said about much of the information being promulgated to internet lists about barefooting being misleading.

I just had this same type of discussion on the gaitedhorse list... I am not an official endurance rider... it is a goal, but, I have not done it yet, I believe I can with conditioning of myself, my horse and his hooves... I would carry boots along, use them if I needed them, I suspect we would finish barefoot if I trained him correctly... He has a more difficult time with rating himself... and would compete himself into the ground if I let him... I am learning more and more all the time, my vet actually feels I should do them, he is an endurance vet here in MN... He loves my horse...

 

Read Karen Chaton's excellent post.  I agree, you should start endurance riding.  After you've done several hundred miles in a season, come back and tell us if you still "believe" what you do now.
>
> If this were a pleasure trail list, I would suspect that most folks
> could get the sort of mileage they want to ride out of their horses
> safely pursuing barefoot methods. 

 

OH, this is funny, as on the Pleasure list I am on, they say the same things, I think it is simply going to take time and success for more people to start taking the barefoot options seriously... I see it as a Paradigm shift... some people will make the switch, just as Sue and I have...

 

 

Right now, the "paradigm shift" is producing horses with sore deep digital flexors and higher pull rates.

 And there ARE those who ride
> endurance whose goals do not exceed their horse's growth patterns.  But
> I DO get tired of hearing over and over again how most of our horses
> would be SO much better off if we just persisted without shoes--and
> what I've seen vetting rides and talking to ride vets who deal with
> Darolyn's string in Texas, etc. does not bear that out.  The horses who
> CAN do this sport frequently and competitively without shoes ARE the
> exception--not the rule.
>
> Heidi
 

 

I am sorry you get tired of it, I get tired of hearing how wonderful shoes are, then ride with someone who is slipping and sliding on the rocks my horse flies up at a hand gallop...
-- 
            

Spare me.  Having ridden at breakneck speeds on shod horses, and having watched many other riders do the same, I'll just use one of your own phrases----you're kidding, aren't you??

 

Heidi

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