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RE: [RC] Re:[RC] Temperature Variance in Working Horses - DVeritas - Jerry & Susan MilamI find my hand a good measure of at least skin temp when I sponge and then hand-squeegie off the excess water. It at least let me know if I need to continue sponging. In His Hands, Susan, Fly Bye & Oskar D'Grouch "All you have to decide is what to do with the time you are given." Gandalf the Grey of Lord of the Rings -----Original Message----- From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of dixie midnight Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:19 PM To: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [RC] Re:[RC] Temperature Variance in Working Horses - DVeritas Frank -- There are two temperatures to measure: The surface (skin) temperature, and the core (internal) temperature. The core temperature is where the horse's body heat is generated, the skin is where the horse's body heat is dissipated. The working horse's skin temperature is easily measured by using either thermocouples or infra-red thermography. The thermocouples can be the easiest to use since they can be placed in any number of particular areas on the horse's body, and instantly read. Most over-the-counter units can measure one 'couple at a time. If you spend some bucks, ($350 - $1000) you can get units which will measure up to eight 'couples at once. My unit measures eight. Infra-red thermographic units can measure whichever side of the horse's body it can capture (flat field), and can also measure areas to a fraction of a millimeter. This can be a particularly good thing, but the drawback I have with thermography (for my purposes) is the limitation of the field of view being only one side, and the extensive calibrations necessary to be able to interpret the colors of the thermograph for each individual horse. Useable thermographs run from $1000 and up, and can be high-maintenance items. In the rare instance that I must have one, I'll rent or borrow one and take my lumps with the calibrations. If one is working one's own horses on a consistent basis, and takes the time to properly calibrate for each horse, thermography may be the best way to go. Once you know what temps the colors represent, it's pretty fast to get the results. BUT...temps vary from near to off side, and speed-of-shot is sort of important to get a true picture of the horse's condition. You can't shoot both sides at the same time, and sometimes data can be skewed by the time lag of having to shoot both sides. Remember, the skin temps are where the horse is throwing core heat off. It is not representative of the core temp, which is the hottest, and where damage (if there is to be any) begins. Neither external thermocouples nor infra-red thermography will give you anything near the core temps. Core temps are only found inside the horse. There's only four non-surgical ways to get in there -- the ears -- (not real good temps, and pretty irritating to the horse); Naso/gastro -- maybe naso-, if you can get the probe far enough into the lung area, but you run the risk of scratching, bruising, or perforating the lung; gastro- is a "maybe" as well, but there's the risk of horse chewing the probe lead off and swallowing it (Colic, perhaps? Or worse), or the stomach acids just eating the probe to a nub (Creating a whole new set of reasons to explain to an incredulous vet); Penile -- let's just not go there, OK?; Vaginal -- should work just fine, if you can get the probe deep enough and not cause damage; and last, Anal -- which is what I use for determining core temps. Anal thermocouples are pretty hard to find, so one has to sort of "make do" and experiment with medical stainless steel housings, with large radii, potted and firmly fixed leads, and must be of a relatively tiny size. It's expensive, but I would very strongly recommend x-ray determination of the first few placements of the thermocouple, to be sure you've got your placements correct. You are limited to the temps you can get by the construction of the horse's small colon, although you'll be pretty close, since the hindquarters do generate a good bit of heat during work. There are two problems I've found with anal core temp measurment using thermocouples: 1) Convincing Horse that he can move with a 'couple in his butt and wires coming out his butt, and 2) Poop movement tends to push the thermocouple out the rectum. But...if it was easy, then everyone would do it, right? Now that you've got the data from the core and the skin, you have to determine what the heck it means! You'll want to know the correlation between the core and skin temps to determine when Horse is approaching his max temp before damage occurs -- how efficient is his natural cooling system; how long for the max allowable core temps to be reduced by the skin's exotherming without outside aids (hosing, etc); how long for the core temps to return to normal without outside aids, and WITH outside aids; how long does it take for the core temps to increase from rest temps to working temps, and returns, all at various gaits and work-loads; what is the direct relation to respiratory rates, heart rates, and core and skin temps; and probably a few other things that would be useful as well. Now...once you've got all that, correlate the SKIN temp to the CORE temp to determine what the SKIN temp is telling you at any given time, from any given area. Once you've got that down, you can place a 'couple at the spot of your choosing on the horse and effectively know what's going on inside and outside during work. Which is what you wanted in the first place. As usual, some of the intricacies of this stuff is proprietary, but if you have questions, please e-mail me at my website, http://www.dixiemidnight.com, or give me a call at 1-888-287-6716, and I'll try to help as much as I can. Karl Dixie Midnight No-Sweat vent pads http://www.dixiemidnight.com Come see us! [RC] Temperature Variance in Working Horses - DVeritas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Okay, so I have been in and out all day (work a horse, bathe the horse, come in for water and chocolate....work a horse, bathe the horse, come in for water and Gatorade..etc.) I got to thinking about how hot it is today. How the horses seem to want to hide from me as I gimp up to them. Then, I got to thinking about just how high does a horse's temperature get when working, say, on a day (like today) and the temperature is 92, with (don't laugh you SE'ers..) 14 percent humidity. So, has anyone a clue as to temperature in a resting horse (around 101) and a horse working on a hot day? Has anyone come up with the means to measure (such as the HRM) temperature while working? Cooling the large arteries and the many capelleries, I mean capallaries, I mean capalarrys, (I give up...spell check is just going to have live with it) seems to be the "coolant" of choice for my horses...lots of water between the hind legs...on the face..... Frank =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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