Ridecamp: Re: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others

Stupid question time again:  Are there any training clinics for the vets, or
is it a learn as you go process--i.e., vets get their training at the
competitions?

Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Morris" <bobmorris@xxxxxxxx>
To: <roger@xxxxxxxxxxx>; "ridecamp" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others


> Roger:
>
> Your latest posting is very interesting. I have endured and
> observed endurance vetting since 1977, that is 25 years and
> I would say that what is now called endurance vetting is a
> far cry from what it used to be.
>
> First off, endurance vetting was originally intended as just
> that. Vetting the horse to determine if it was fit to
> continue (or start)for a considerable distance in a sensible
> manner. Today, vetting the horse has turned to a CYA process
> that determines if the horse is in condition to be raced to
> the next vet check.
>
> I think your comments and suggestions are well thought out
> but let us take a look at the suggestions one at a time;
>
> 1. CRI at all rides at all Vet Checks  NOT AT THE FINISH.
>
> This one is good if the CRI is standardized. I have seen
> horses pulled because the CRI varied by two beats. I have
> seen horses allowed to continue when the variation was four
> beats. Now I do not consider that to be a standard. We must
> establish an acceptable range of variation.
>
> 2. NO chasing hazing of horses by anyone at the VC to obtain
> a trot. Crops for
> unruly horses only, NOT to make a horse trot.
>
> Agreed. If the horse will not trot out then it is not fit to
> continue.
>
> 3. Fix COMPLETION PULSE to 64 for 50 miles and up (NO more
> lower 60 pulse for completion).
>
> Disagree here. I believe that ambient conditions should
> dictate. I have seen times where 56 was a reasonable pulse
> criteria. I would opt for a standard of 60 bpm but feel
> there should be some acceptable range considering
> conditions. However our AERC Rules do provide: 6.2.1.2   The
> equine must reach a reasonable pulse recovery based   on
> ambient conditions, within 30 minutes of arrival time   at
> all control points during the ride. The maximum pulse
> criterion is 68 beats per minute; however, the ride
> veterinarian(s) may allow a higher pulse criteria in
> documented  extreme  weather  conditions.  Respiration
> should  be  evaluated  on its  own merit.  Ambient
> tempera-ture and humidity effects need to be recognized and
> there   effects on respiration rate considered.
>
> 4. Completion time at finish LEFT as is at one hour -
> includes pulse recovery
> and vet out process. (NOT the 30 minute pulse recovery I
> have seen at
> a few rides)
>
> Our AERC Rules call for one hour. 6.2.1.1   All Equines must
> stand a mandatory post ride evaluation   within one hour of
> finishing.  Riders may present their    equines for the
> final examination at a time of their choos- ing during the
> one-hour period.  An equine that does not   meet the
> established criteria within one hour of crossing the finish
> line shall be disqualified.  Once a competing equine has
> passed the post ride examination, it may not be removed from
> completion for veterinary reasons. When the 30 minute
> recovery is instituted it is a violation of the rules and
> disputable when used for completion criteria.
>
> 5. More then ONE VC on 50 milers and above. Some standard on
> the number of VC per mileage and conditions- yes within
> reason- may not apply to ALL rides.
>
> Well we can go round and round on this one but just let's
> say we strongly disagree. We have no need to get
> paternalistic in endurance riding.
>
> Now for your last comment "I suggest YOU run for the BOD
> this time with all the DAL seats open."
>
> I have run more times than you can count but my politics do
> not make me a suitable candidate. My stance is that the AERC
> Rules and Regulations are very satisfactory and if
> stringently enforced there would be fewer problems. Most of
> those who would be my constituents do not agree. So! Never a
> candidate again.
>
> Bob
>
>
> Bob Morris
> Morris Endurance Enterprises
> Boise, ID
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Roger
> Rittenhouse
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:29 PM
> To: ridecamp
> Subject: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others
>
>
> FROM   Roger Rittenhouse
>
> I noted TWO posts from riders about the pre-ride VC
> procedures and
> the issue with 'strange or inconsistent way of going; NOT  a
> real
> issue with lamness.
> This problem appears to be  an issue at more and more rides.
> It tends to be more prevalent with  'big time' rides with
> more then one
> vet doing the trot evaluation - the sort of gang up vetting.
> It occurs at the OD every year and other bigger rides as a
> few riders have
> commented.
> Part of this situation is caused by  ' the top vet I see
> something
> and you dont' syndrome.
>   IF one top vet 'sees' something ALL the other have to go
> along to
> not appear as they dont know what they are doing, sort of a
> group
> hysteria thing, one sees 'something' and all the others  -
> say   'yeah
> maybe so'. Just to be on the same team and all of one common
> mind set.
>
> Its mostly bunk as far as I am concerned. IF the horse is
> REALLY LAME
>   that is, which means the AERC RULES definition of lameness
> are
> applied , then there is
> no question, but this sort of uneven crap and missed ONE
> step that is
> ONE head nod   -inconsistent - that is, is baloney. I see
> too much of
> this.
> To be pulled  you have to show a consistent uneven gait in
> ALL
> directions of the trot out - out back and circles. The old
> policy was
>  IF the horse took a few bad steps the condition was noted
> as 'G1
> inconsistent LF - or what ever.
>
> NOT this stuff we are seeing today.
> Some of this made up criteria  is getting out of control.
>  One up mans-ship vetting. Why ?? to prevent a problem
> later?
> Well I believe someone quoted a vet at the OD saying Lame
> horses generally do NOT die
> - but metabolic problems will kill.?? I think I have that
> right.
>
> Then we have the other end of the spectrum where tired
> horses are
> chased - hazed - to make them trot- they may be sound but
> are dead
> tired  - fatigue? .. this has been one of may major bitches.
>
> Talk about inconsistent vetting. a little bobble at vet in
> gets you a
> no start- but having to chase - smack- hit - whapping with
> crop at every
> step - yelling- dragging - what ever to get the
> tired, but maybe sound horse, to trot out at the end gets
> you
> a completion?? go figure.  It is NOT a training issue.
>
> I actually thought the idea with undefined motion gait
> issues,was to let you start then REALLY look hard
> at the horse at the FIRST VC. This assumes the horses is NOT
> indicating an abnormal gait that causes NOTED irregular
> motion- head
> bob or hip hikes etc  WITH EVERY STEP.
> I would of course NOT like to see a G2,(almost every step)
> start or
> continue.
>  But not this minor uneven gait - as in 'we dont really know
> but
> there is something there' , so your out thing, this is
> improper.
> Sort of like the pull for 'he dont look right'  no real
> issue found
> just the vet does not like the way horse is looking.  There
> are
> standards on what constitutes a not fit to continue horse.
> Not self defined -
> non-specific criteria.
> The ONLY time this really means anything is when YOU the
> rider thinks
> something is wrong AND the vet supports your 'feeling' THEN
> YOU the
> ride should re-evaluate and either adjust your ride or
> withdrawal.
>
> Far too many times I see or hear of riders getting pulled
> for in-vaild
> reasons. Of course the vet can 'make something up' then you
> get
> pulled for a 'real reason' and we are not allowed to object.
>
> Seems horses are not being allowed to start for LESSOR
> inconstant
> gaits then would be allowed to continue on trail or at the
> finish.
>
> Let me toss this one out - Does anyone other then ME think
> all this
> excessive picky nondescript vetting have anything to do with
> the influence of FEI
> and a transference of mind sets from the FEI vets?
>
> I have complained about this 'do it your self' vetting rules
> interpretation to a few vets - defined what I thought was
> improper and
> suggested we have rules to follow. IF we do not care for
> these rules
> and want stricter standards THEN we should make the changes
> to
> conform with new standards.
>
> Since I was NOT at the OD  - let me ask this one - DID ALL
> the horses
> get the CRI done at ALL VC-  AND - at the FINISH - was it
> used as a
> finishing criteria? COULD you have been pulled for a
> 'failed' CRI at
> the finish??   Need to define that one?
>
> I have ranted on this before- I would like to know,   How
> many other
> rides (riders) have noted this? Is it being done at more
> rides. It
> sure is NOT consistent at the rides I went to last year.
>
> I have brought these issues(and others) and lack of
> consistent vetting and
> following the rules, up to the BOD and vets both on the BOD
> and the Vet
> committee. I have gotten no where expect - ridicule - no
> action and told by the vets
> that they will do as they please - what ever the vet of the
> day wants to do - even
> outside the rules and guide lines of AERC.
>
> So after reading this stuff from two rides (riders) I now
> take it public.
>
> Should we make the rules of starting and fit to continue as
> well as
> completion stricter, do we need to codify the policy and
> vetting
> standards to insure ALL the vets perform the process the
> same way at
> ALL rides?  Do we want to develop standards as done in
> Australia and
> other places. Logs books all that which goes long with that?
>
> OR do we just ask - demand-  the rules, policy, and
> guidelines we
> currently have in place be followed?
> I believe our current rules and vet procedures are for the
> most part- adequate.
>
> I would like to see a  few changes but overall the rules and
> procedures are acceptable for the protection of the horse.
>
> OK now that you asked ?? WHAT would I change ?
>
> 1. CRI at all rides at all Vet Checks  NOT AT THE FINISH.
> 2. NO chasing hazing of horses by anyone at the VC to obtain
> a trot. Crops for
> unruly horses only, NOT to make a horse trot.
> 3. Fix COMPLETION PULSE to 64 for 50 miles and up (NO more
> lower 60 pulse for completion).
> 4. Completion time at finish LEFT as is at one hour -
> incudes pulse recovery
> and vet out process. (NOT the 30 minute pulse recovery I
> have seen at
> a few rides)
> 5. More then ONE VC on 50 milers and above. Some standard on
> the
> number of VC per mileage and conditions- yes within reason-
> may not apply to ALL
> rides.
>
> Just a few to get the flames up to temp
>
> I dont really expect any changes to anything- though. No one
> wants to
> go on the hot plate- as many of you will take exception to
> most of my
> comments.
> I suggest YOU run for the BOD this time with all the DAL
> seats open.
>
>  OF course we can do it the way Dr Matthew wants to go,
> Get rid of the hard ball rules and 'racing'
>
>  Say just how did THAT work out the OD?
> Guess the 50 would be more valid then the 100 miler.
> I really dont see that going anywhere either.
>
> Roger Rittenhouse AERC #8263
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger Rittenhouse
>
>
>
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