Re: RC: DNA markers-- was breeder ethics

[Bette Lamore <woa@stormnet.com>]

Hi Heidi
Just got a hold of Bev Scott and she confirmed it was TX A&M that was
initially involved in this project despite the fact that Boyd Haley, the
researcher spearheading this proposal to attempt to develop markers to
differentiate Anglos from purebreds, lived in Kentucky. Go figure. My
post said there was a debate over DEVELOPING criteria in DNA testing for
weeding out Anglos--- I NEVER said they were successful at it or even
how far they had gotten in the research. Remember I said that there was
opposition to even doing the research. I don't know what "misinformation
you are accusing me of, Heidi, because the debates were real. I never
made any claims about markers being found or current research. I also
never compared DNA testing to blood testing for parentage. And I quote,
"about 5 years ago, there was a very heated debate about DNA testing,
and no it had nothing to do with establishing criteria for
parentage---blood typing handles that very nicely." Of course DNA
testing is better but we were told it was more expensive so we were
discussing the use of DNA testing NOT for simple parentage issues, but
for the development of markers. DNA has been used for years by the
Registry in cases where there is an issue of parentage and the blood
tests are not conclusive--I know; I used it myself once when I
questioned the parentage of a horse. Works well and fortunately I didn't
have to pick up the tab. The debate was not centered on parentage but on
developing markers for breed differentiation. I never claimed to have
all the info on that and in fact I said "I've been out of racing at the
track for some time now so there are obviously newer developments that
I'm not aware of."
If you can just put down your flame thrower for awhile and stop accusing
me of "misinformation" (to quote you), I will try to get a hold of Boyd
this weekend and see what ever became of his research. It would be
interesting to see how far he got into his research into markers. Just
for the record, my original post is below and you can see again that I
have made no claims about markers, pro or con. Unless you're talking
about Magic Markers---now I do feel comfortable with them.
Re: DNA testing

When we were at Los Alamitos, I believe it was about 5 years ago, there
was a very heated debate about DNA testing, and no it had nothing to
do
with establishing criteria for parentage---blood typing handles that
very nicely. A group at Texas A&M was developing criteria to distinguish
purebred Arabians from essentially Angloarabs in an effort to stop 
horses, such as Unchained Melody and Victoria's Secret who looked like
Anglos, ran like Anglos and led the Arab pack at Los Al by 40
lengths---I was there to see one of Victoria Secret's wins and it was
pretty pathetic---the jockey was actually holding her back as she raced
at least 30 lengths ahead---someone said it was 40---could have been. I
just know it was disheartening to watch. I'd made friends with some of
the jockeys and none of them believed she was purebred. How could
that
be??? A loophole. The owners of the mare who was her dam said she
was
sold at auction (presumably to the killers) and since they could not
retype the mare's blood to prove it was hers, there was a HUGE debate
and many race people left racing. You see, the French were coming in
with their questionable mounts at the same time. This group headed by (I
have to ask Bev Scott for his name--she would remember) were pushing
to
delineate criteria to separate purebreds from Anglos by going to the
chromosome level. Now this was going to be difficult because
remember,
the thoroughbred was infused with the blood of the Darley, Gedolphin
and
someone help me out here--I always forget the third ones' name (early
Alzheimers or, as I prefer, the forgetfulness of youth) who were
purebreds, of course. 
So the very heated debates went on; friendships were destroyed in some
cases. We were on the fringe, but you think ridecamp debates get
heated.
Imagine debates where your horses might not meet the criteria because
they have, let's say Serafix up close and perhaps it was true he was an
Anglo. Big money went into racing. Well the group pushing for it said it
would not go back far enough to discount all the Serafix
offspring---that they would construct the criteria so that it would
eliminate those who had Thoroughbreds up close. Many were not
convinced
and others did not want to see DNA testing become part of registration
because of the anticipated extra costs. Many trainers became
disheartened because it meant, rather than a few "ringers" (like Melody
and Secret--who, by the way were quickly bought up by the sheiks and
whisked away to European races) there could be many ringers from
overseas
countries who did not "police" their breeding programs as well as us. As
it stands now there are still many trainers who are disgusted with the
current situation. I was there when Nadine Phillips talked Patrick
Swayze into NOT pursuing flat racing because of the French horses. Pat
had just come back from the 25 miler at Quatar and was really thinking
of pursuing all types of racing then--even sponsored some stakes races.
Nadine dropped out of Los Alamitos right after that--and she was a
highly respected trainer. I know of others who did, too, but I can't
speak for them.
In all, it was and is a bad deal overall. To be competitive one almost
has to put some of the French blood in their program and I heard over
and over at the Sotheby's race auctions,"if you can't beat them, join
them." That is really hard for many breeders to do who have integrity
and believe in their program. In my experience, most breeders knew they
were fighting the odds, but continued breeding purebreds; but then,
maybe it was just those I hung out with. The thing that makes it gray
and not black or white is that the French have been breeding for size
and race ability for a long time so a pretty head and type as we
Americans define it didn't seem as important to them. Thoroughbreds
are
faster than Arabs in the short runs so if their Arabians resembled The
big "T" in body type and could win---what was the problem? None to
them.
So how close TB's are in their program it is difficult to tell; hence
the quest for the perfect criteria and DNA testing. 
When the Registry refused to accept the French Registry horses as being
Purebred carte blanche, WAHO kicked us out of theirs--clash of egos
some
say. All I know is that it destroyed the race industry for awhile until
the ruse was developed to filter our horses through Canada's Registry.
The rest is history and still nothing has been decided about the DNA
testing so far as I know. If anyone is really interested, I believe
Finish Line has tons of articles about this and I'm sure ARAC officials
could give you an earful about all these proposals. It's been a long
time since I was involved, and again I was only on the fringe (but then
you know that anyway, huh?). My memory is not that great but I believe I
got the Gist of it. Any race people on line? Please correct any errors.
I've been out of racing at the track for some time now so there are
obviously  newer developments that I'm not aware of. Fortunately, very
little of this mess impacts endurance riders as there is no purebred
breed requirement and races are not set up in breed divisions. Tried to
find my Finish Lines but I believe they fell victim to the great MARK
PURGE in our last move. Oh well. (Hiding my collection of 70's Horse
Worlds).
Hey I am anything but an expert on DNA testing; these are just my feeble
recollections of the great debate at Los Alamitos (actually, tracks all
over from what I heard.)
Bette

CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/4/00 12:39:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, woa@stormnet.com
> writes:
> 
> <<  as someone pointed out, the issue of whether
>  markers are FEASIBLE could effect us all. >>
> 
> And the concensus among geneticists is that it is NOT feasible.
> 
> Heidi
> 
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-- 
Bette Lamore
Whispering Oaks Arabians, Home of TLA Halynov
http://www.stormnet.com/~woa
I've learned that life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer it
gets to the end, the faster it goes. Smell the roses!