RE: Re: bitting questions (long)

[Marlene Moss <marlene.moss@wcom.com>]

Amanda,
Thank you for the suggestions.  I do have pretty decent hands, but I do have
to convince myself to use contact.  And that may be some of the issues - too
sudden of contact.

I do need to reprimand this horse more - especially at the rubbing on me
thing, so that will be a good place to start.  I'm glad you suggested a
non-jointed - I'm trying one now that he seems to be more responsive to - I
just had zero experience with anything other than a jointed snaffle.

Thanks again,
Marlene

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Amanda Perez [mailto:amandaperez@ureach.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:30 AM
To:	ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject:	RC:  Re: bitting questions (long)

I have yet to do an endurance ride but I have
schooled/reschooled many horses.  My 2 cents worth, below:

> Ok, I have just started riding my 4 yr old gelding.  ... I
> noticed that he would not really listen to the bit and kept
> stretching his head to the ground. I don't know enough about
> green horses to know if he was confused, evading the bit, the
> bit didn't fit, was just being his goofball mouthy
> neck-stretchy self or whatever.  I didn't fight him since I
> didn't want to mess up his mouth not knowing what I was doing.

   If you don't want him to grab the bit/stretch, LET HIM KNOW
IT!  It does not have to be by banging his mouth.  I teach all
my animals a "Knock It Off" command.   With my dogs,
it's "Leave It!".  For my horse, I go "ANGHT!" (sounds like a
game-show "wrong answer" buzzer). Use whatever comes
reflexively to you.  You can teach this on the ground by making
the sound simultaneously with adminstering the correction of
your choice (smack with a crop, whatever).  Ideally you should
set the horse up to do something you don't want it do do, so
you are not correcting him for nothing.  I usually use eating
grass while bitted, since it's an easy set-up, but that would
not do for an endurance  mount! If you're horse laways rubs his
head against you while bridled, that's a good one.  For those
who want to use more positive reinforcement type conditioning,
couple the command with the removal of a positive stimulous;
feed him a treat or some grain, and suddenly remove the treat
while saying "No!" (or command of choice) - with thios approach
he does not need to be misbehaving at the time. You know the
horse has the idea when you say "NO!", "ANGHT!" or whatever and
his head snaps up and he looks concerned.  Ince the command is
conditioned, you can use it whenever he gets grabby/mouthy with
the bit so he KNOWS it's a no-no.

> I was using a fat eggbutt snaffle and the trainer was using a
> full cheek snaffle.  The trainer worked him in 2
> environments - round pen and on trail.  I have found that the
> horse goes beautifully on the trail and is getting much
> better in the arena.  But he acts very confused in an open
> field with no trail.  He sticks his head up in the air, down
> to the ground and just kind of fights me - and seems
> nervous too.

  Sounds to me like he is looking for someone to tell him where
to go: he is used to getting his direction from the rail fo the
arena or a visible trail, not from you.  I'd do alot of work
off the rail/trail: serpentines, circles, diagonals, etc so he
learns to go where you tell him and not just to follow the
yellow brick road.  You'll need to use constant light contact
with both hands and legs to guide him - a loose rein will just
confuse him.  That might be why your trainer is getting
different resulst - s/he may be providing the horse more
direction with seat and hands.

> The problem is most evident at a canter - head goes down with
> a little crow-hopping.

  For this I'd do lots and lots of transitions - walk to trot
to wlak to trot to canter to walk - starting with just a few
strides in each gait, to teach him to listen and pay attention
to what comes next.  Also use the verbal correction for the
crow-hopping - that's just plain silliness (assuming saddle
fits well and there are no soreness issues: how well do you sit
to his canter?) and should NOT be tolerated.  In this case I;d
say it's OK to use your hands to get his head up.  And don't be
afraid to keep quiet, light contact while riding: he needs to
be told where to go, using both hands and seat, in order to
avoid confusion.  I am assuming you have light, quiet hands -
ask someone knowlegable to watch you ride and evaluate your
hands.  If you are really unconfortable with riding 'on-
contact' due to his green mouth, or are unconfident int he
lightness/steadiness of your hands, try rubber reins or elastic
inserts (such as 'Rein-Aid'): this will prevent any bangs to
the mouth from being too harsh.

> I have ridden him with a bitless bridle and he goes pretty
> well.  But as he's gaining confidence, he's starting to
> resist me and want to have more control over our speed.  So
> as he's started acting up a bit, I've been less
> confident about going bitless.

  Again, practicing transitions and verbally correcting ALL
silliness IMMEDIATELY should help this.  Do alot of walk-trot
work before doing cantering.  Transition work can be mixed up
with the circles/serpentines etc once he is doing OK with them
separately:  serpentine the ring, alternating loops at a walk
with loops at a trot.  Do a circle at a trot followed by one at
a canter.  Do a diagonal across the ring half at a walk half at
a trot etc.   Mix it up - don't fall into a fixed, repetitive
drill: keep him busy and guessing. Just remember that all this
is hard work for a green horse so intersperse LOTS of rest
periods and love-fests (pats, praise etc) and keep sessions
short.

> I had his teeth checked in the spring, but haven't had them
> checked since, so I can't rule out issues there until I get
> the dentist out.  But there were no issues at the time and he
> has had his wolf teeth out.  I have no
> idea what to look at to determine if there might be teeth
> issues, nor how to look at a horses mouth to determine what
> kind of bits might work.

  IMO I don't think it's a tooth issue, or even a bitting issue
per se, but just green horse goofyness.  If you do think it's
the bit, I'd try an un-jointed bit - a straight-bar rubber
snaffle or a kimberwicke, starting with the chain very loose
(or better yet with a strap insead of a chain). I'd stay away
from any sort of curb/shanked bit.  Some horse just don't like
jointed bits (mine is one).

> I appreciate any ideas and I will be sticking to the arena
> until we have a direction that seems to make sense.

  Don't totally forsake the trail.  You don't want to end up
with a ring-sour horse, and your ultimate goal is the open
trail so he needs to learn to listen to you there as well.  All
the exercises above can be done in an open field and the
transistion work can be done on the trail.  If he seems to
uncontrollable at the canter, stick to walking/trotting on the
trail and do your canter-work in the ring.  Also be sure to
make sure he has some fun - don't school %100 of the time you
are riding if you can help it, even if it means getting off and
walking him, stopping to let him graze, etc.  Give him a chance
to suceed: spend at least 70% of each ride doing those things
he does well and enjoys - don't work on his 'issues' the entire
time.


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