RE: RE: RE: Karahty (and Bloodlines in Arabs)

["Kathy Mayeda" <kathy_mayeda@atce.com>]

You are over-reacting bubba.  It kinda cracked me up because you don't even
know the facts and you are 'HORRIFIED'.  He's a gelding. And I am not a
breeder - if I was I wouldn't "advertise" the weak loins, would I?

My mare has a stronger back, very athletic and being bred by my ex-, her
breeder.  He's keeping the baby and is totally responsible for the breeding.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I was very marginally involved with the
halter world and I wouldn't want to go there.  People go into debt, raise
dozens of pasture ornaments that they think they could get big bucks for in
the market, and can't keep up with simple healthcare, like hooves, teeth,
correct feedings.

If I were to "buy" a horse, I would probably look to a breeder who
specifically knows how to breed for endurance, and actually more
importantly - knows how to raise the get so that they are sound in mind and
body for their job.  I wouldn't bother even breeding at this point, because
I could buy a really good endurance horse for less than the total cost of
breeding, Then I actually know what the product is, rather than crossing my
fingers and hoping the genetics rolls in my favor.  And I would look for a
shorter horse, because I'm 5' tall and my guy is 15H3.

My horse was given to me and was not chosen specifically for endurance.  He
is a wonderful horse in many  ways that are intangible.  It was my choice to
make him my first endurance mount, because he is the saner of the two
horses.  He is certainly teaching me everything in the book about equine
biomechanics because he has problems in this area.  I don't know if this is
genetics, a pasture wreck, or whatever,  But he has a good strong mind, has
the "want to" attitude, yet he knows how to take care of himself and tells
me when somethings wrong.  My mare is the more sounder of the two, yet I
want to live through my first endurance rides!

However, just because a horse is halter bred does not preclude him/her from
being an excellent endurance prospect. My ex has a couple of geldings that I
would love to take off his hands and start conditioning if I could afford to
keep them.  They have straight legs, strong backs. correct angulation, good
minds, etc.  They were not bred specifically for endurance.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Bob Morris [mailto:bobmorris@rmci.net]
Sent:	Thursday, April 20, 2000 9:28 PM
To:	Kathy Mayeda; Webmaster; CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com; katswig@earthlink.net
Cc:	ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject:	RE: RE: RE: Karahty (and Bloodlines in Arabs)

Dear Kathy:

Please realize those stallions were not "listed in the database". They
appeared as shown because the numbers placed them there. Be aware there was
no placing of anything in the simple study. The question asked (and a
question must be asked to promote a study) was who are some of the most
prominent antecedents of our endurance horses. We took the AHR# of those
Arabs with 2000 miles or more and using these as a base, assembled the
AHR#'s of all the available antecedents for five generations back. All by
reg. #. Then after this shake out a name was applied to the reg. #'s and the
list appeared as placed on line.

Perhaps these horses, and they are not just sires but dams as well with a
few geldings thrown in, are the progenitors of most of the North American
bred Arabs. After all the gene base for Arabs has never been all that large.
As a comparison, look how many humans are descended from Adam and Eve! That
was one hell of a small gene base to start with!

I read your statement <<< And my horses are not the ideal body type for
endurance because of their halter breeding (weak loins)>>> with some horror!
Why do you persist breeding for a fad rather than strong, healthy animals
that can do something. You are ruining the breed for a fancy!

Bob Morris

-----Original Message-----
From: Kathy Mayeda [mailto:kathy_mayeda@atce.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 6:49 PM
To: Webmaster; CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com; bobmorris@rmci.net;
katswig@earthlink.net
Cc: ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Karahty (and Bloodlines in Arabs)


My point is the stallions listed as being top sires in the database are also
top sires of MOST North American bred arabs, whether they are bred for
endurance, show, pleasure, or whatever.  My horses were not bred for
specifically bred for endurance, they are domestic bred for halter.  But
they still claim those very same stallions in their pedigrees many
generations removed.  And my horses are not the ideal body type for
endurance because of their halter breeding (weak loins) - BUT THEY STILL
HAVE THOSE SAME ANCESTORS!

Sure, you could hedge your bets on a more modern stallion that is proven for
endurance.  I have no quarrel with that.  But to base a study to say that
all Arabs descending from Raffles (I'm just throwing out a name), because he
has so many get that are registered in the endurance registry, would be good
endurance prospects would be ludicrous.  So do you really think you are
making an intelligent decision?  I think that a wiser choice would be to buy
from a breeder who has a successful program in nuturing and training
endurance prospects along with long-term selective breeding, rather than to
buy a horse because he has ten lines to whoever.

I haven't bothered to check actual numbers of breeders who breed
specifically for endurance, but based on dollars spent on advertising
stallions, the endurance market is a very small percentage of the Arabian
market as a whole.  Just pick up a copy of Arabian Horse World and see how
many stallions are advertised for their endurance get.  Look at the number
of stallions advertised there, the dollar amount they spend for their
advertising, and then compare it to Endurance News.  And keep in mind that
the bloodlines shown in Arabian Horse World might be imported and therefore
popular for the moment, but Raffles was popular for the moment in his day -
and breeders back then were not breeding specifically for endurance.  And
then the breeders have horses to sell that don't quite make the grade in the
halter world, racing, or show ring for various reasons.  So what becomes of
them?  Pets, trail horses, performance horses, feedlot  prospects and
pasture ornaments.  Or maybe endurance or race horses.  Or there are a few
horses that were successful at halter to go onto endurance, like Remington
Steele.

Give me a break....


-----Original Message-----
From:	Webmaster [mailto:webmaster@endurancehorses.com]
Sent:	Thursday, April 20, 2000 5:13 PM
To:	Kathy Mayeda; CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com; bobmorris@rmci.net;
katswig@earthlink.net
Cc:	ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject:	RE: RE: RE: Karahty (and Bloodlines in Arabs)

<...what does it really mean?>

It means that there is a need within the endurance community to educate
ourselves about our horses so that we don't have to make statements like
yours.  So that we might utter a sentence in regards to breeding that didn't
include the words, "...I think...that might...who probably."  I would much
rather be able to make an intelligent decision about a prospective horse
based on empirical evidence than take tours of feed lots hoping to find
another Red.

Let me make myself very clear that in no way do I think that this tiny
project comes close to the aforementioned empirical evidence; this whole
project was done simply as food for thought.

Our main focus was to raise the awareness that we need to do a better job of
utilizing the data assets that our sanctioning organizations maintain.  That
data and the data maintained by the breed organizations is the key to
understanding the successful breeding that actually produced an endurance
performer.  We should never slip into the complacency of just not being
bothering with it all.

Salim Nice

-----Original Message-----
From:	Kathy Mayeda [mailto:kathy_mayeda@atce.com]
Sent:	Thursday, April 20, 2000 4:10 PM
To:	CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com; bobmorris@rmci.net; katswig@earthlink.net
Cc:	ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject:	RC:  RE: RE: Karahty (and Bloodlines in Arabs)

All this is very interesting statistically, but I think that there are many
modern stallions out there that might produce excellent endurance mounts but
never get into the endurance registries because their get are primarily used
for performance, pleasure, show, pasture ornaments, or breeding for
breeding's sake.   Since we are seeing a lot of successful endurance horses
being rescued from feedlots, who probably have a good lick of all these
stallions listed in their pedigree, what does it really mean to us?