Re: Fw: ANTIBIOTICS AND GUT FLORA?????

[Susan Evans Garlinghouse <suendavid@worldnet.att.net>]

Hi Linda, 

I'm replying publicly to the whole list just in case anyone else is
following the thread.

Your Bone Heal product sounds interesting, I have heard of similar
suspensions that help, I assume in a similar manner.  I've been
instructed to give Maalox along with bute in the past to a horse that
was suspected of having gastric ulcers.  Maybe they work the same way,
I'd be interested in hearing more from your end.

I'm a little confused though about your comment:

>       I have been told that it is not the natural stomache acids that cause
> ulcers,
> and that some of the meds actually do more harm than good, as they strip
> the gut of its protective acids in an effort to heal the ulcers.  You all are
> very well informed on most of these subjects, so you are certainly entitled
> to disagree, but my info. comes from the chemist who helps put together
> our formulas. 

My understanding is that the stomach lining is protected by mucus
secreted from the stomach wall, which creates a barrier between the
acid, primarily hydrochloric acid that would cause or irritate ulcers. 
Was this just a typo? :-)  Anyway, I really don't know much about
gastric ulcers but am interested in learning more, including about your
products. (You can email me privately if you like).

Your probiotic supplements sound good also, and I think would be an
excellent supplement in horses that are having to reestablish an entire
gut flora population.  However, I still have my preferences in
supplementing as well with other species besides the lactic-acid
producing species such as L. acidophilus and L. bifidus.  My primary
reason is in horses that have a microbial imbalance due specifically to
a grain overload are going to already have a "bloom" of the
lactobacillus species, and a die-off of the yeast, protozoal and other
non-lactic-acid producing species.  Since this in turn can have an
effect of endotoxin release and potentially laminitis, I like
supplementing those "other" specieis along with the lactobacillus spp. 
But, anyway, that's just my own preference---as a lactobacillus
supplement, your product sounds very good, and I'd be interested in
hearing more.

Thanks for the post!

Susan G

avpinc@bellsouth.net wrote:
> 
> Susan and Sheri,
>      We have had some extremely good feedback on one of our products,
> Bone Heal, in the treatment of ulcers in horses.  It is a liquid based calcium
> product which helps coat the stomache and relieves the digestive discomfort
> thus increasing appetite and ultimately also helping with weight loss.  We
> developed this product to help heal fractures and splints (and it works very
> well in that, it's original purpose) but my trainer had several horses who were
> suffering from ulcers and we decided to try this.  She now uses it by the gallon
> and is very happy with this new use of the remedy.
>      We also recently developed our own version of the "acidophilus" powder
> that has been mentioned.  It is considerably more concentrated and very cost
> effective.  Our product requires tsp. doses, rather than T and is in a finer base
> which dissolves very easily for mixing with food or water.  We have had some
> very good reports on our Anidophilus It contains Lactobacilus Acidophilus
> as well as Lact. Bifidus.
 If you would like any more information on these products,
> please feel free to E-mail me privately.  Thanks.
>                               Linda Flynn, Anico Vet. Products, Inc.
> 
> Susan Evans Garlinghouse wrote:
> 
> > Hi Sheri,
> >
> > The problem you describe is pretty common, the severity depending on how
> > effectively the gut flora was disrupted due to the antibiotics.  You're
> > doing the right thing in feeding your horse probiotics to replace the
> > gut flora.  However, you might want to make sure that the brand of
> > probiotics you're using delivers more than just one or two species of
> > microorganisms---quite a few types of probiotics, ie Bene-Bac, deliver
> > almost exclusively lactobacillus species, which is fine, but doesn't
> > help reestablish other types of bugs, such as protozoa, saccoromyces
> > species or yeasts.  The Forco is delivering some of the yeasts, but you
> > might consider varying the type of probiotics.  I happen to like
> > Fastrack, and United Vet has a brand that has a good variety as well.
> >
> > I would also suggest that you feed the probios on a daily basis, and if
> > possible, in small, frequent feedings rather than a single large bolus.
> > That will help reestablish a good population as well.  Make sure your
> > horse has a continuous supply of hay, as small amounts of feed traveling
> > through the cecum will also help reestablish a steady population.
> >
> > One other thing is you might ask your vet is about the possibility of
> > gastric ulcers.  These are pretty common in horses that have been under
> > stress, as yours has, and the signs you describe sound like this might
> > be a possibility to check out.  If so, there are drugs which will reduce
> > the production of stomach acid until the ulcers heal.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Susan Garlinghouse, MS
> > Cal Poly University
> >
> > Steph Teeter wrote:
> > >
> > > <this query is being forwarded for Sheri Thompson - please send
> > > responses to the ridecamp list so that she can view them through
> > > the archives. thanks, Steph>
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Message:  My horse was on antibiotics on two separate occassions to clear
> > > up a
> > > >scratches infection.  Both times while on the antibiotics while either
> > > doing
> > > >an endurance ride or training on a long ride he colicked (gas colic).  I
> > > was
> > > >told by several veterinarians that the antibiotics had killed off my horses
> > > >gut flora  (the good stuff) and now he has only gas producing bacteria (the
> > > >bad stuff) in his gut.  My horse is now on large amounts of probiotics and
> > > >Forco.  I am looking for anyone with any similar experiences that might
> > > help
> > > >me or ease the mystery with this problem.  I let my horse rest for 4 weeks
> > > >after the second gas colic episode (with only turn outs and hand walking)
> > > and
> > > >then I started him back slowly (riding-walking only-about 4 miles every 2-3
> > > >days) and after the first week of starting him back, when he felt really
> > > good,
> > > >I let him trot a little but 24 hours later he acted slightly uncomfortable
> > > >i.e. popping his lips together, yawning-all the usuaal signs he shows when
> > > he
> > > >is a little gassy.  So I am now letting him rest again for 2-3 weeks and I
> > > >will start riding him at a walk again.  Can anyone that has ever had this
> > > >problem tell me how long it took their horse to recover totally and what
> > > they
> > > >did to help the horse recover from this problem.  Any information regarding
> > > >this would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >Thank you,
> > > >
> > > >Sheri Thompson
> > > >