Re: RC: Tortoise vrs hare, ie: carbo vrs fat!

[Tivers@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/16/99 8:26:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
ralston@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU writes:

<< Welcome Back, Tom. Glad to hear you are well again and very active! Heidi
 and Mike-it is like old times! forgive me for wading in a bit late, but it
 is the end of the semester-exams and termpapers to grade. Also
 I'm going to try to avoid the point/couter point approach.>

Aw, P/CP is where it's at. Dissertations are for academics. 
 
 >Another word of caution again however from the "other" camp regarding Tom's
 predilection for carbo loading. Please note that he said in his first
 message that the "endurance" races in Dubai where they were showing
 promising results were flat, sandy and FASTER than most of the ones here,>

Bbbut, what encouraged me to try it in UAE were the nice results we were 
getting here from the courageous pioneers who disregarded the dire warnings 
of disaster and got excellent results. By the way, in the UAE race while I 
was there, we got Best Condition and 3rd and 4th in the 110K. Today, in a 
60K, the Sheikh reports we took second, just behind Sheikh Muhammed's horse. 
Next time, the brass ring!

 >and in his response to Beth and others he admitted that if carbo loading
 you need to do it every two hours during a race. I can see where this would
 work and do not argue with it. However, this strategy is not the only one
 that works and yes you should be concerned about sudden increases in
 insulin inhibiting fat utilization if not continuously replenishing the
 glucose (which lacking "on board" glucometers and carrying the specially
 formulated rapidly acting carbo loads with you and/or reaching pit stops
 every two hours could be tricky).>

yep, a little tricky, but then I always assume that I'm talking to 
intelligent people until proven otherwise. In the case of Ridecamp folks, I 
have not been disappointed.

> Tom openly has admitted that the high
 glucose/insulin regimen he promotes will inhibit fat utilization but this
 is mainly because insulin inhibits lipolysis, not that it blocks the krebs
 cycle.>

It inhibits muscle uptake of fats. 

>In a long HARD (read lots of climbs and caution needed on the trail)
 ride like the Tevis, one of the reasons Susan's work on body condition
 showed that horses carrying a bit more weight (body fat)>

Who says it was body fat? Very unlikely. More likely, extra muscle glycogen 
stores.

 >with condition
 scores of 4-6 did better was that they had the fat stores to burn! The
 really thin horses with no fat stores pooped out, and they may have
 benefitted from Tom carbo feeding at 1 1/2 hour intervals to keep them
 going because they had no gas in the fuel tank! >

Body fat is not gas in the fuel tank--it's extra baggage. What you're talking 
about here in better body condition is stored muscle glycogen, not stored 
fat. Do you really believe that the difference in body weight between 
properly fed and poorly fed equine athletes in hard training is body fat? A 
delusion.

>If not racing to win a 7
 hour 100 mile race, but going a (IMHO) more reasonable pace with a well
 conditioned horse, the utilization of fatty acids (read lots of hay, beet
 pulp, green grass and fair amount of body fat) is efficient, safer and
 cheaper than carbo loads.>

Again, get the terminology right. Carboloading is other than carbo 
supplementation. Loading is a 4-5 day pre-event protocol while 
supplementation is a during-event protocol. 

 >Under aerobic conditions the utilization of the
 VFA's (a capability human athletes do NOT have)>

Really? Humans can't use Volatile Fatty Acids? That's interesting news.

> and fatty acids from body
 fat mobilization help preserve the blood glucose concentrations at the
 level necessary. Yes glucose is necessary but using the alternate fuels
 available especially to the equine athlete avoids the peaks and valleys! >

That is, if you don't get regular doses of the carbs--and then, believe me, 
you won't like what happens when the body tries to shift to fats--like 
putting diesel is a gas motor.
 
> I also do not and never have recommended feeding high fat during a ride,
 but there is a place for fat supplementation during conditioning,
 especially if the horse tends to be a hard keeper. But again, "high" fat in
 a horse ration is only 7 to 10 % of the total-a cup or two max per day, not
 the excesses that inhibited performance in the rat and human literature.
 The work done by Potter in Texas showed that horses adapted to high fat
 diets (it takes up to 3 months for them to fully adapt) were more efficient
 than those on lower fat rations. They conserved blood glucose levels better
 than low fat fed horses because they utilized the VFA's and fatty acids
 from fat mobilization better, a trick human metabolism just doesn't have up
 it's sleeve.>

We've been over the Potter/Topliff/Stull/Pagan/Jackson studies, and we can 
rehash them again if you wish, but in the real world, carb supplementation is 
working, and there are reasons why it is working.
 
 >I leave the cutting edge, pushing the limit fastest race horses to Tom. My
 voice is for those of us who ride to complete with a healthy, sound horse
 that will serve us well for many, many years with no desire to push it to
 or over its limits.>

A moral issue? When in doubt, retreat to God and Country? My voiced is for 
those who want healthy sound WINNERS. 
 
 >I will not get into another war with you, Tom.>

Bbbut, Sarah, I live for wars. And, if i'm not mistaken, this post is 
something of a broadside, ain't it? A treatise on the immorality of carb 
supplementation?  

 >Just wanted to point out
 that there are different requirements for different strategies-your
 recommendations excel at fast and furious,>

You've extrapolated to a Grand Delusion here, Sarah. The truth is that those 
who've ridden for finishing have done very well with carbohydrate 
supplementatino. Isn't that unbelievable? 

> the hay/beet pulp and green
 grass strategy preferred by many others (some of whom have also competed
 very successfully for years on the same horse!) tend to do better with the
 slower and steadier pace often required for not so flat rides. So,
 Ridecampers, decide which strategy you prefer and follow that! I do not
 disparage the "hot shoes"-more power to them-they certainly do add
 excitement to a competition. Just remember that many of us in this sport
 are not and have no desire to be hot shoes>

It IS a moral issue for you, isn't it? Winners are bad, losers are good. Will 
you be voting for Al Gore in 2000?

 
 >and that the level of
 horsemanship, training and resources it takes to be really cutting edge
 competitors is beyond the ability of most newbies (not that they couldn't
 progress to that stage eventually).>

Right. Keep 'em dumb and dependent.


 >Carbo loading during a ride may work
 for the elite endurance race horses, but if used improperly and/or by
 inexperienced riders, could end up in more "boinks". >

Name a single instance.

>It is also absolutely
 not necessary for the competitive trail types of rides where the pace is
 controlled to a modest (compared to your hares) 6-7 miles per hour. >

You can just as easily get an exhausted horse at these speeds. 
 
 >Again, Tom, you keep on finding the recipes for the hares but leave the
 tortoises to Sue, Heidi, Mike and me!>

Ok, Deal. I'll work with the winners. 
 
> Sarah Ralston and Fling (who competed over 260 miles in three months this
 year without metabolic problems, despite some really extreme weather
 conditions. Unfortunately a pinched nerve (as it turned out) which caused
 on and off lameness (which of course appeared on during the trot out!)
 prevented her completing the last day of both the NJ 100 and NY 100. Sigh.
 If it ain't one thing it's another...)>

ti (who just completed 44 hours of air-time, exhausted, despite plenty of 
body fat.)
 
 Sarah L. Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN
 Associate Professor
 Department of Animal Science
 Cook College, Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
 84 Lipman Drive
 New Brunswick, NJ 08901
 
 Ralston@aesop.rutgers.edu
 732-932-9404 >>


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