Re: John Lyons methods for spooky horse

[Horsestwo@aol.com]

In a message dated 5/16/99 9:09:35 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
milamj@agtelco.com writes:

<< Anyway, In round pen work, Lyon's is confusing at times with his
 instruction. I'd like to know what to start with first in the round pen.
 I know he buils his teaching with one thing and then adds another. On
 the 2nd symposium tape, he's taking a virtually wild arabian who never
 really even been halter broke and teaching it as the tape starts to move
 when he kisses to it and then after the horse is moving well, he starts
 asking it to chnage direction, saying inside, outside, and also adding R
 & L to the instruction. He'd say, " Inside to the Right" or Outside to
 the Left" This seems an awefull lot for a horse to pick up. Where's the
 KISS principle here? He also says he never wants to teach the horse to
 stop. Which book or tape does he go in order with the building cue
 process so I can pattern my training after it?
 
 I've taken Fly in the round pen a few times now, and he's definitely
 fearful and respectful of me in there, which is part of what I am
 wanting to teach him anyway. I tried just kissing to him when he was
 circling for a change in his direction and when he didn't understand at
 first I'd cut his path off so he'd be forced to change direction. He
 eventually got the connection that the kiss meant change his direction.
 Lyon's uses kisses for everything that means "move". I guess I don't
 really know what I'm trying to teach him in there other than I'm the
 alpha mare and he'd better  do what I want him to.. 
  >>

Susan;

I, too, was confused at first about the kiss meaning so many things but it 
means "move something".  With your body language (intent) you are asking for 
forward movement in the round pen.  Use of lariat or rope (I used an old 
lunge line but be careful of the snap hitting you on the knee!) to back up 
that command is used when necessary and only at the hip (stay out of kicking 
range).  It is useful if you actually look at a spot on the hip to tell the 
horse to go forward when making the kissing sound.  This is pressure and the 
release (when you stop kissing) tells the horse he did it correctly.

I will give you an example.  The horse is on the rail with you in center 
holding coiled rope.  Kiss to the horse, looking at hip spot, thinking "go 
forward".  You might have to pop the rope against your leg to signify 
"forward now".  If the horse was to choose to stand or walk forward a few 
steps and stop, then while doing all of the above, throw the rope at 
hindquarters.  Most Arabs won't need that much but they do look for evasions 
sometimes, so you have to be prepared for what you need to do to step up the 
request.  You might not realize it but you used very bold body language, so 
that when you do it consistently the horse will recognize it.  First you get 
the horse to move then you get the horse to move consistently then get the 
horse to move in the direction you want.  So, you have the horse moving at a 
nice trot around you and you ask the horse to change direction.  Move to cut 
off the horse (I usually lift the coiled rope in the direction of the head 
and put pressure on the head to move away) and it doesn't matter which way 
the horse turns, just so he changes direction.  If you think the horse will 
run over you, give way.  You can always try again but remember the 3 rules 
(you don't get hurt, horse doesn't get hurt, horse is calmer at end than at 
beginning).  As soon as the horse begins to turn, release the pressure and 
let him go around the pen without asking anything of him.  That is reward.  
If the horse tries to return to the original direction, you must get him 
turned back quickly (instantly).  This is when the horse realizes you can 
control his movement and his direction.  After several turns you will begin 
to ask for turns in a specific direction.  Outside turns are toward the 
railings of the pen and inside turns are toward the inside of the pen (toward 
you in the middle).  This is where JL makes it look hard for the rest of us 
because he doesn't seem to be doing anything different for the specific 
turns.  He is and so will you because of the body language factor.  He steps 
toward the railings to cut off the horse as before focusing on horse taking 
his head away.  The horse has to virtually stop and roll back to go in the 
opposite direction.  If the horse makes the correct turn then pressure is 
released as before and the horse goes around the pen.  You must be specific 
when asking for inside or outside turns.  Know which kind of turn you are 
asking for, even saying out loud as JL does when he's explaining.  Teaching 
the inside turn is just developing a slightly different posture or body 
language cue.  As the horse is going around you, step away from the horse but 
still cut off his path around the pen.

I'll try another analogy.  Pretend the pen is a clock that you are looking at 
from above.  You are in the middle and the horse is going clockwise (to the 
right) and is at 12.  To get an outside turn you would step toward the horse 
at about 3 o'clock.  The horse turns correctly and you let him go around once 
to let him know he got the right answer.  He is now going to the left.  You 
wish to teach him the inside turn so when he reaches the 12 o'clock position 
again, you step back toward the 6 as well as toward the 9.  This gives the 
horse enough space to turn to the inside (toward you).  The horse won't 
likely get the answer correctly on the first try as outside turns have been 
correct up till now.  In that case get the horse turned back around as 
quickly as possible and ask again in exactly the same way.  The answer is 
always easier for the teacher than the student.  You are simply telling him 
"wrong answer, try again".  He will know when he gets it correctly because 
you will cease giving him verbal cue (kissing) and your body language will 
stop putting pressure on him.  Being allowed to go around the pen with no 
more requests for a short period will reinforce the reward (release of 
pressure).  Don't let him go endlessly around the pen with no requests 
though.  It is not hard for the horse to focus on you and try to figure out 
your requests when you are consistently clear and consistently reward the 
correct answer. 

Be sure to teach one kind of turn (usually the outside turn) first and get 
the horse solid with recognizing your cue for that particular turn.  Then, 
start teaching the other turn.  Don't be discouraged if he takes many tries 
to understand that you mean for him to turn toward you and proceed in the 
other direction.  It is important for him to keep moving after the turn.  You 
don't want him to stop his feet and face you,YET.  That is down the road a 
bit as you have to gain control of his response to ALL your requests.  As you 
saw, JL then mixes it up a bit with different kinds of turns so the horse is 
really paying attention to what his body language is saying.

If I can teach my horses to do this ANYBODY can!  It is NOT difficult for the 
horse to relate to this as it is instinctive to the horse to pay attention to 
very subtle horse body language.  You don't want the horse fearful, you want 
respectful understanding.  Your goal should be to gain control through 
response.  If when I have my horse in a pen or arena or pasture and I kiss to 
him I expect a response to my request to "move something".  I have been 
through the whole round pen lesson so I am sure he knows by my body language 
that I am asking him to come to me.  I need to be consistent not only with my 
cues but with my focus and concentration.  When you have the horse responding 
to the kiss in the round pen you can naturally use it when you do leading or 
loading lessons.  It is nothing short of amazing to me what the horse can and 
will learn if you teach a cue and ALWAYS reward the correct answer.  I can 
look at one of the feet and ask it to move by kissing (asking for movement), 
think about putting pressure on that foot and have him move it.  Now, he 
might move another foot first but because I don't stop the pressure until he 
moves the foot I was concentrating on, he will keep trying.  I tell him 
"right answer".  I don't have to physically touch him or push him or smack 
him to get him to at least TRY to find the correct answer.  This helpful if 
he is standing on the hose as I am filling his water bucket!

Important to remember is to be very specific about what you want to move and 
which direction to move it.  If something doesn't seem to be working, go back 
a step and practice that.  Think how it might be more understandable if you 
added another step to the lesson plan.  Horses don't knowingly give you the 
wrong answer.  They either don't know what it is or are not motivated to look 
for it.

Good luck with your teaching and beg, borrow, buy or rent the rest of the 
tapes in the series so you can continue to get the control so necessary for a 
positive relationship with your horse(s).

Melanie in AZ


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