From: Stacy A Berger <Stacy_A_Berger@ccm.sc.intel.com>
Subject: [endurance] Vosals
My horses love the vosals. It has been especially helpful
with my Porter, who is pretty high-strung. He used to get
very frustrated at my holding him back and would direct all
of his energies on the bit - then explode! With the vosal I
can work on his behavior without me being too heavy handed.
It works similar to a bosal - which is much different than
a bit in the mouth. It is important to keep the reins loose,
except when you are trying to communicate, otherwise the horse
"numbs" to the pressure. I believe that the vosal is acutually
less severe than a bosal because of the hinge. I also use a
sheepskin covering across the nose.Stacy Berger
Morgan Hill
From: step@fsr.com (Stephanie Teeter)
Subject: [endurance] Endurance horse wanted - Pacific Northwest / Northern
California
My friend is looking for an endurance horse. She wants a horse that is
ready to go - not necessarily ready to be competetive but already
conditioned and ready for the spring ride season. She is more interested in
a solid, steady horse than an aggressively competetive horse - and more
interested in a history of slow conditioning miles than an impressive win
record. Ideally between 6 and 8 yrs of age.
Please send me email, or call Harriet Aiken at 208-835-5044.
Steph Teeter
From: bordrcrk@ix.netcom.com (Greg & Kathy Seibolt )
Subject: Re: [endurance] Vosal info
Karen wrote:
> I still don't use it exclusively on my younger horse now, as I have
>found that it
>works better on a horse that neck-reins well,
We've used the Vosal on one horse, and he got along great in it.
However, some people have experienced problems with it when trying to
use it on a horse that does not neck-rein very well. The scissor
action under the jaw can be confusing if you are trying to direct rein,
or "plow" rein with it. It should be used similar to a hack or bosal,
in that you use a pull-release action, not constant contact.
There is a distinct art to using each type of bit. The Vosal is no
exception. Play around with it, on the horse - from the ground, pulling
the reins in various directions: separately, together, with "high"
hands, "low" hands, etc., and observe the action it has, and where it
is putting pressure on the horse.
If you can get your horse to work in it, it's great on the trail
because of the absence of the shanks (easier to eat and drink).Kathy
From: Tommy Crockett <tomydore@goblin.punk.net>
Subject: Re: [endurance] combined post: idiots & cell phones
I haven't been online much recently and have let this thread drop a
might. But I really have taken some time to think this out since reading
both of your posts. I've gotten some e-mail from some awlfully thoughtful
people on this like Karen and I really think that I'm going to start
carrying a cellular with me. That's what the sheriff is there for and
doggone it I think it makes perfect sense to let them settle these
things. (One would think we're living in the wild west or (in terms of
Oz) Ned Kelley (did I spell it right?)
On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Nikki Ward wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Samm C Bartee wrote:
> > I want to just be able to show some of the idiots pictures of what
> > happens when dumb people try and show off to their friends by spooking
> > the horse. I have seen some very graphic photos of dead horses and dead
> oh this struck a chord with me all right. i have a certain amount of
> patience with the drunks and the hunters and the other ignorant idiots
> out there who don't know what they are doing could hurt some-one (not
> alot of patience mind you, but some :-). but i have no patience
> whatsoever with the deliberate idiots who TRY to spook your horse and who
> think it's funny to see you tossed off onto your head. they'd better
> watch out if they bother me because i'll have their number and my first
> stop on the way home is the police station.
> one of our favourite places to ride was in the plantation forests. good
> tracks, generally only used by horses and walkers and joggers and the odd
> mountain bike. we all get on fine. the occasional car comes through too -
> on a sunday drive. this is no big deal - the tracks are wide, there's
> room for two cars to pass and my horse ain't THAT fat :-)
> on one particular occasion we were riding along the track beside the
> river. the river is in quite a steep valley at this point and the road
> was quite high above it, with a rough drop down into the river. we were
> on the river side of the road (i always keep to the outside of bends if i
> can - cars etc have more chance of seeing you) and a car came along. we
> were riding side by side, but close to the edge and there was plenty of
> room for the car to pass. they even slowed down so we relaxed thinking it
> was a nice driver. more fool us. he slowed down so he could wind down his
> window, reach out and throw something at the horse as he gunned the
> engine right next to us, then took off, showering us in gravel! my
> friend's horse was on the inside and naturally freaked out. it leapt
> sideways and ran into my horse who was on the drop side. and to this day
> i thank my lucky stars he is a solid horse, only two feet went over the
> edge and he managed to hold himself up with the other two, by this time
> with me and my friend on his back as she had come off her horse and
> landed over his withers! i shudder to think what would have happened if
> he had have been lighter and easier to knock aside, or if he'd have
> freaked as well......> nik & the gang (taaj, saki & dippa) in australia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Tommy Crockett~Los Osos, California USA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~tomydore@goblin.punk.net~~DAMS028%CALPOLY.BITNET@cmsa.berkeley.edu~
From: Virginia Goodman <PHA146@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject: [endurance] Vosal Info
I use a vosal and love it. I'll just second the comments that you
can ride with a very light hand, even with a hot horse. I also
put a sheepskin nose cover on it, and biothane straps (thanks
Teddy!). I still "school" him in a French snaffle, but on the
trail, forget it. The vosal will give you control, and free your
horse's mouth to eat and drink.
From: MarkyMart@aol.com
Subject: Re: [endurance] training on the road
Hi, I ahve also thought about making a sign that says slow down to hold up.
The dog that goes with us we all make sure that we keep her on the same side
of the road as we are on, and yes you are allowed to talk about dogs in this
group, We all keep an eye on her and don't let her get too far away and we
do't let her chase any thing too far. She gets really upset if I go over to
the barn and I don't go for a ride and don't even think of taking a horse
off that property without her. One of those flourescent orange collars would
work or on of those orange doggie vests (they also make them for horses too)
I also try the don't get out of the lane either but every body else panics
even when I say they'll have to slow down, they'd rather be safe than sorry.
hat I should go look up the LAW as it is written to
know exactly what my rights on horse back are. We also have a lot of Amish
and Mennonites that drive buggies.Bobbi & Shai
From: PSRUX@aol.com
Subject: [endurance] Re: endurance-digest V1 #272
In response to the vosal question. I've found a mechanical hackamore that has
short shanks, the horses can eat and drink fine. It's called an english
hackamore and can be purchased through Stateline Tack. I've had problem with
the vosal in that if I have it adjusted enough to be effective, it has rubbed
my horse's chin when he eats.Sue
From: stewart@postoffice.ptd.net (Richard K. Stewart)
Subject: [endurance] Feb-March International News
February March
International News
Lori Stewart
RIDING AT A WHOLE NEW STRESS LEVEL IN YOUR SPORT
And, riding at a whole new level of exhilaration.
The true nature of FEI endurance competition is nothing more than
an opportunity to experience a new and different challenge in our
sport of endurance riding.
In the December issue of AERC News, Randy Eiland, Southwest
Region director and Ride Managers Committee Chair, chose as the
topic for the Ride Manager's Forum the issue of FEI/AERC dual
sanctioning. His article also expresses a number of negative
opinions and feelings about International that are held by many
AERC members. I will attempt to address each of these issues in
this column. In the Ride Managers Forum this month, Randy's
questions regarding dual sanctioning are addressed in part by
Teresa Cross , one of the few ride managers to AERC/FEI dual
sanction a ride in the past ten years. She talks about her
experience as the ride manager of a dual sanctioned ride.
It helped me to understand why many AERC members have a skeptical
attitude about International by using this analogy. A guy looking
into a trench sees it very differently than the guy in the trench
with the shovel. I'll address the points one at a time.
1)Some lack of trust in the international scene.
International does have many interesting peculiarities, some of
which are: AERC International has a special membership fee. A
horse/rider team must qualify and be selected in order to
participate in an FEI championship event. The horses all must
have passports. It is a competition between teams complete with a
team manager (Chef d'equipe) and team veterinarian. The overall
event format is different than a typical AERC ride.
If you have been involved in any capacity at an FEI international
ride, some of the differences may still seem peculiar but they
are no longer unsettling. Most important you've learned that the
ride itself requires that riders compete like they would at any
other 100 mile ride. Our "To Finish Is To Win" motto has proven
to be especially true in team competition.
2)"One of the main objections I have to the 'international
mentality' is their belief and constant use of the term, 'It's a
whole new level of competition'. I don't really believe the
competition itself is at a higher level than where the rest of us
compete."
I agree. However, "New" doesn't mean "higher". As far as I know,
the words "new level" have never been synonymous with "higher
level". Endurance riders by nature are always looking for a new
and different challenge. You only have to look at the point
standings every month to see the wide variety of AERC awards.
Each represents a different challenge. I don't think one is a
higher award than another, just different.
Beware the would be international rider that would like you to
believe the false mystique that "new" does mean "higher". If
that rider can psych you out of nominating, their chances of
making the team are improved. One of the first things I learned
when I started endurance riding in 1976 is, COMPETITION STARTS
EARLY. Since its beginning, gamesmanship has been almost as much
a part of endurance riding as horsemanship.
3) "...these are the same people we compete against in our little
old AERC rides... and sometimes we common folks even beat them."
I've noticed that too with good horses at the peak of their
careers. At rides, they all seem to end up finishing together.
Who finishes in front of who is usually determined by which
athlete is having a better day.
Also keep in mind, the owners of these equine athletes may have
different goals so the good horses don't end up attending all the
same rides. The rider going for the AERC 100 mile award is not
going to attend the same rides as the rider aiming to attend the
most 5 day rides. This year with the date conflicts, the rider
wishing to compete in the championship series was at a great
disadvantage if she/he nominated to ride for a team at the FEI
North American Championship.
4) "The real difference is in the number of restrictive formal
rules, dress codes, and other doctrines that accompany the
international scene."
The basic philosophy of an FEI sanctioned ride is that the
"playing field" should be level for all competitors, regardless
of nationality or where the ride is held. While the rules may
seem nit picky at times, each has evolved out of some past
discrepancy or perceived inequity (not unlike AERC rules
evolution over the years!). Many different nationalities are
represented and many different languages spoken. If you think
rule interpretations and controversy within AERC can sometimes
get out of hand, just imagine the potential at an international
ride! Therefore the rules are specifically spelled out and
enforced rigorously.
The dress code is minimum. Basically, one must use taste in
dress and not go overboard in search of individuality (after all,
you are representing your team and not yourself!). The more
formal dress of a World Championship opening and closing ceremony
is worn to show respect for the host country, the event
officials, your fellow riders, and yourself.
The differences are no big deal once you've been to one of these
things. However, one of the biggest challenges facing a chef
d'equipe is preventing the inconsequential differences from
totally psyching out a rider. More than once great riders have
arrived at the starting line totally sleep deprived and 5+ lbs
down in weight because they don't believe the talent that got
them there is the talent that will see them through. Usually by
ten or so miles into the ride they start to believe in themselves
again. What all riders say in hind sight is they've never been
so pampered during a ride (thank you team support crews) and
they've never been to a ride that had more efficient and fair vet
checks and veterinary judging.
Team competition is the most distinctive aspect of an FEI
Championship Ride. Team spirit is exhilarating for everyone,
helpers and riders alike.
5)"Not to mention the amount of money and "free time" one must
have to actually be involved in these endeavors."
An FEI North American Championship requires a money and time
commitment in the same ball park as the ROC or a 5 day ride.
These endeavors ain't cheap either. However, for these other
events you are probably not working together with your fellow
endurance riders to hold fund raisers and solicit sponsors to
help off set costs for the team.
Before we joined forces with United States Equestrian Team, an
off continent World Championship was a financial killer. Today,
thanks to USET, a rider still has a greater than average time
commitment (about two weeks) ,but this extra time commitment is
offset by having all their expenses to attend the event paid by
USET.
6)"I may be wrong, but much of what little I know of
FEI/International makes it seem like a glorified version of
NATRC.
This is a tough one for me to speak to because I've never ridden
an NATRC ride.
I do know that there are no judges scoring you around camp or
lurking on the trail at an FEI ride. There is a uniform
inspection before the ride to make sure all riders have an
approved riding helmet and safety stirrups or shoes with a heel.
The horse passports are inspected to make sure the grey horse
standing next to you is the same grey horse you nominated and
also that all vaccinations are current. Riders are weighed with
tack before the ride to make sure they meet the 165 lb weight
minimum and the weights are sealed.
A very important although informal judging is conducted by all
participants and officials at an FEI ride. A consensus is always
reached regarding which team has the...COOLEST UNIFORMS!
The winners of this judging have a great advantage after the ride
when everyone starts swapping shirts and jackets for souvenirs.
The post ride uniform swap is becoming a time honored tradition
at a World Championships. ..Viva la differance!!
AERC International Committee service carries a wide range of
responsibilities. We thank all our outgoing committee members
for serving on the committee for the past two years. Your work
has made a difference for the future. Thank you, Keith Byergo,
Karen Schrader, Suzanne Hayes and Heidi Smith-Winger DVM for your
service on the AERC International Committee. (Reword this a
little if you want. Sounds just a little awkward.)
Congratulations and welcome to our newly elected AERC
International Committee zone representatives. Eastern Zone,
Teddy Lancaster; Central Zone, Russel Brussard(check spelling!);
Mountain Zone, _________?; Pacific North Zone, Marcia Smith DVM;
Pacific South Zone, Nancy Elliot DVM. (Reference inside cover of
this issue of AERC News for your representative's address and
phone number.)
Aerc International Activities and Meetings planned for the
Convention:
Feb. 29, Thurs. 9 am: AERC International Committee Meeting
Mar. 1, Fri. TBA: AERC International meeting-Review of
Thurs. meeting and look to the future.
Mar. 1, Fri. 6 pm: AERC International party for International
Members. Check Clarion Hotel monitor for
location.
Mar. 2, Sat. TBA: AERC International meeting-Focus on the
World Championships
REMINDER: Riders nominating for the United States Endurance Team
please contact USET for a nomination packet. Your January AERC
News has complete selection details. Rick Stewart stewart@postoffice.ptd.net
From: stewart@postoffice.ptd.net (Richard K. Stewart)
Subject: [endurance] Response from Dr. Gillespie
AERC/FEI DUAL SANCTIONING QUESTIONS ANSWERED
by: Jerry R. Gillespie, DVM, PhD
Dr. Gillespie is the AHSA Endurance Committee Chair and the
United States, Canadian representative to the FEI Endurance Sub-
Committee. He is also the Organizing Committee Chair (ie. Ride
Manager) for the 1996 World Endurance Championship in Kansas.
In the December AERC News, Randy Eiland is right to question the
whole matter of international riding and specifically dual
sanctioning (FEI and AERC) for upcoming rides. He allows that
he doesn't know a lot about FEI rules and he expresses some
concern about the "international mentality." That's one of the
great things about AERC, there is room for those who wish to
ride with AERC rules only in all sizes of rides (including
"little old AERC rides") and for those who wish to ride FEI only
from national events right up through official international
events. And now,we can even have events that combine the "best"
of AERC and FEI in some rides. As I see it, these combined
sanctioned rides have lots of advantages for riders, ride
managers, endurance ride organizations and the sport:
1) It gives riders and ride managers a chance to become familiar
with both sets of endurance ride rules, i.e., you have to know
the rules if you're going to implement them. Knowledge is
usually more satisfying and less dangerous than ignorance. So
this gives us all a chance at learning and at being more
positive than dangerous.
2) In experiencing both sets of rules, riders and others can
assess the value of the rules from either AERC or FEI.
Ultimately, it is the competitors that will, in time, have the
final say about rules.
Certainly, AERC rules have had a vital (overwhelming) influence
in the FEI rules for endurance. I suspect there will be
additional modifications of the FEI rules because of experience
gained using AERC rules and perhaps visa versa. What I think all
of us strive for is the best rules for the sport. My 30 years
around the sport has proved to me that we mostly reach good
decisions, although sometimes very slowly. The lesson I take
from this is that if we keep the good of the sport in mind, we
will most likely, in time, arrive at sensible rules, and there
can be two (or more) sets of rules depending on which group
you're riding with on any one day.
3) When we ride together we learn we aren't them (FEI) and
us(AERC), but that we are just "us." Maybe we each have
different goals in the sport, yet as Randy points out, we are no
better than the horse we're riding and our ability to ride them
well.
To answer Randy's questions, first we need to define what rides
may be dual sanctioned. Rides that include just riders from a
single country with only a limited number (defined number) of
foreign competitors are likely to be dual sanctioned [FEI names
these rides National Events (CN), Frontier Events (CF) and
Friendly Events (CA)]. However, World Championships, World
Equestrian Games, and the Olympics in which any of the 108 FEI
nations may enter individuals or teams must be run under FEI
rules only.
It is also important to know that there is an "intermediary"
between ride management and FEI. It is the National Federation,
American Horses Shows Association (AHSA). AHSA will help
interpret FEI rules and regulations for those wishing to have an
FEI sanctioned ride.
1) Does my vet have to be FEI approved and what does that entail?
Is there going to be additional cost to us for FEI approval?
While it may be desirable to have a veterinarian with FEI
credentials, it may not be necessary for a CN ride (riders all
from the host nation). It is important to have at least one
individual who is either a certified FEI official or veterinarian
to help interpret/implement FEI rules as they apply to a
particular ride. This is likely to be a requirement for the ride
to be sanctioned. Briefly, for an individual to become FEI
sanctioned requires experience, completion of an FEI course,
passing an FEI test, being nominated by one's National Federation
and accepted by the FEI.
The details of this process are beyond the scope of this
communication, but can be obtained by writing AHSA (or myself).
To maintain FEI certification, one must stay current on the FEI
rules and be active as a judge or veterinarian.
Under current circumstances, there will not be extra costs to
have a ride sanctioned by FEI and AERC if it is a local CN ride.
This could change, but I feel confident the current AHSA
endurance committee will resist any additional costs.
2) If there is a conflict of some kind in interpretation of an
aspect of the ride, which rules have precedent, AERC or FEI?
Good planning and communication should prevent any major conflict
in interpretation. Further, the important fundamentals; care of
the horses and fairness for all competitors are part of both the
AERC and FEI rules. If there is a minor grievance, I would
imagine ride management, the head veterinarian and the FEI
official would meet to determine a fair and sensible resolution.
If a ride manager anticipated such a conflict, they could
announce before the race which rules would have precedence in
case of conflict. In the early going of dual sanction rides, we
should seek harmony not conflict; I think the host organizations
(AERC & FEI) will want to do so. After all, we're doing this
mostly as an exercise in learning.
3) If an alleged violation or misunderstanding occurs, how is it
resolved with respect to ride management, AERC Protest& Grievance
Committee, and FEI?
In a conflict, ride management is obligated to work with all
parties to find a fair resolution. Both AERC and FEI have
grievance procedures. Which is chosen would seem to be a matter
to be decided by the ride management and/or the person with the
grievance.
Certainly, it must be understood that the outcome of the
grievance in one organization will not necessarily affect the
standing of the grievance in the other. I feel certain both AERC
and FEI will wish to maintain the right of riders to grieve, and
that these processes will be separate and unaffected by the
other. One of the reasons FEI has a Ground Jury and an Appeals
Committee at FEI rides is to resolve most grievances on site.
There is an additional FEI appeals process with ultimate decision
authority which is rarely ever used; in part because the FEI
Ground Jury regularly upholds the decisions of the Appeals
Committee. FEI certainly would have no authority to reverse the
decision of the AERC Protest & Grievance Committee nor would AERC
have authority to reverse the decision made by the FEI grievance
process. They would each stand within each separate
organization.
4)Does FEI/AERC dual sanctioning require certain marking
criteria, such as certain colors and distance apart?
No, if it is understood that there will be a variance of FEI
prescribed marking. The intent of standard marking set forth by
FEI is to assure fair competition for all competitors. If it
makes no sense to use FEI marking and the FEI officials are
satisfied the marking used will allow all riders to follow the
trail fairly, then other marking can be used. FEI becomes more
rigid about all rules the more the ride involves foreign
competitors; but for CN rides rules are meant to assure fairness
for competitors, safety for horses and to make sense. Again,
that is why it is important to have at least one qualified,
experienced FEI official at these rides. They have the authority
to make these sorts of decisions on rule interpretation.
5) Does an FEI/AERC dual-sanctioned ride require a steward?
No, stewards are not always required, particularly at CN rides.
Again, FEI officials are helpful and if one can arrange to have
several qualified FEI officials available, ride management's job
is made easier.
6) Is a helmet mandatory at an FEI/AERC dual-sanctioned ride?
Yes, helmets and stirrup guards are required at FEI sanctioned
rides at all levels.
7) Is there a dress code? Tack requirements? Could they
disqualify riders who did not adhere to these requirements?
Only at international rides does FEI insist on a specific dress
code, and then, most specifically at ceremonies. What FEI does
require is that the tack used is safe for the horse; I would
require the same at any ride (AERC or FEI) of which I was the
manager.
Yes, there are more questions that can be asked and will be. What
is needed is a spirit of cooperation and a desire to learn from
experiencing and experimenting with both AERC and FEI rules. It
would be unwise and certainly not good for all of us who love
endurance horses and the thrill of endurance competition to
become confrontational about details of rules. It seems to me we
need to look to see how rules affect fairness and safety of the
horse. If the rules accomplish these fundamentals then we
shouldn't hassal too much over details.
Finally, I do not agree that FEI/International is a glorified
version of NATRC riding. We can thank AERC members who have
represented endurance riders on the FEI Endurance Sub-Committee
for assuring that FEI rides are anything but NATRC rides.
Thanks for the opportunity to be a part of the dialogue.
JERRY R. GILLESPIE, DVM, PhD.
Kansas State University
Phone 913/532-5708
FAX 913/532-4309
e-mail gillesp@vetmail.trotnet.vet.ksu.edu Rick Stewart
stewart@postoffice.ptd.net
From: BECHACK@aol.com
Subject: Re: [endurance] Hoof Angles??
Probably more important is that all 4 feet be at the SAME angle, or at
least the fronts and rears equal to each other. One knumbskull had one of my
horses with 4 completely different angles.!!!!
Even I could see the problem with this lack of care ( or knowledge ) on
the part of the farrier. If your horse doesn't seem to have a problem with
the way he moves/travels down the trail, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Becky H
From: karen@chaton.gardnerville.nv.us (Karen Chaton)
Subject: [endurance] Re: Hoof Angles
> Even I could see the problem with this lack of care ( or knowledge ) on
>the part of the farrier. If your horse doesn't seem to have a problem with
>the way he moves/travels down the trail, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix
>it"
You know what though - my horse moved exceptionally well, I always got
comments on what a good mover my horse was, he won ribbons in horse shows,
and passed thru many many vet checks without ever a comment ... his feet
were so out of balance (now that I've learned the difference I could kick
myself!)
We've been working for many months getting my horses feet back into shape.
I wish a vet had pointed some of this stuff out to me sooner. I was lucky
enough to meet a farrier at a ride who pointed some of this stuff out to me
and helped me get on the right track. (and the horse to)
Now that my horse has his feet balanced, he can travel much faster with the
same or less effort - it is truly amazing. So, if it ain't broke, make sure
it ain't broke (don't learn the hard way like I did - at my horse's
expense). It's amazing how well a horse can learn to compensate for a
problem.
There are some really good articles on balanced shoeing in Trail Blazer
magazine. They do a different article every month. I save them all, so if
anybody is interested in a specific subject, just let me know. Karen
From: "Kevin M. Pfoertsch" <safehavn@po.fast.net>
Subject: [endurance] English Hackamore
I have used the State Line version of a hackamore (leather headpiece with a
stiffened leather noseband-did not find it in their current glossy catalog)
for several years for light hacking. Unfortunately, the D-rings which
attach to the noseband to attach the cheekpiece, etc. will pull out. The
leather covering on the nosepiece is very flimsy and degrades over time with
exposure to the weather--even with suitable "leather care". I had my
hackamore fall apart at a very inopportune moment (is there any other
kind?)--the D-ring just tore out and the bridle literally fell apart. Not
even baler twine could fix this one. I had it resewn, only to fall apart
again within a couple of uses. I bought a brand new one, thinking that the
original hackamore had gotten "old", and the new one disintegrated on the
second use.
If you have one that seems to be working for you, you might want to keep an
eagle eye on the stitching on the nosepiece. That's what will let go--and
an inspection of the construction will show you that on-trail repair may be
a little difficult with this version.
I have been using a Vosal for a year now--works great for the neck-reiners,
not so well for my mare who is relatively unschooled to rein subtleties.
Have not had significant rubs, get good "respect" without the need for a
heavy hand, and it doesn't interfere with eating and drinking. My mare
demands-not-prefers the Sleister variety--by keeping the chin chain very
loose, the shanks will fold back enough so that the horse can get her head
in a bucket. Diane @ Safe Haven (in the very frosty East...brrrrr)