Re: [RC] RE: Hoof Angles/Pastern Angles

[Abby Bloxsom <goneriding@snet.net>]

Karen - let me say first that I want to commend us all on hanging in 
there through this thread without losing our cool.  It's a difficult 
topic to explain in words, and it's way too easy to lose it when a point 
is not getting through.

Karen Standefer wrote:

> That's where we disagree.  I don't believe there is a
> "natural" pastern angle.   I believe that the coffin
> bone should be ground parallel and the pastern angle
> will follow the coffin bone angle.   


In your experience, what is the normal range of coffin bone angles?

> 
> Obviously, with a club hoof, if you were to make it
> match the good hoof, the pastern angle would need to
> change, agreed?  


Yes it would.  Do you believe that there's no such thing as a horse 
whose tendons will not allow P3 to descend to ground parallel?

> Because, with a club hoof, the hoof
> as well as the pastern (and as follows, also the
> shoulder) angle is steeper than the normally angulated
> hoof.   


EEK - this is where I get hung up.  How can the shoulder angle be 
expected to follow the pastern angle?  There are four joints between 
them, 2 of which are hinge joints and so have a fixed extension point. 
The 3rd is a complex weight-bearing joint that also has a limit of 
extension.  The way I see it, if the cannon bone is perpendicular, the 
shoulder blade can only have one angle.  Only the fetlock joint has a 
sling of tendons supporting it.

> Inside the hoof, the coffin bone is also at a
> steeper angle.    Logically, it stands to reason that
> if you can get the coffin bone to be at a normal
> angle, then all the other pieces of the boney column
> will follow suite.  


But there's much more to the conformation of the leg than the laminae 
and the bones ...  There are the joint surfaces and tendon lengths that 
the horse was born with or that have been altered by injury, disease, or 
diet.  I'm a great believer in the Power of the Trim, and I'm the last 
person to pull the plug on a horse because of its feet.  I just stop 
short of being convinced that any one treatment modality can fix all 
problems, or that proper trimming can change all conformation traits.

> It's simply suspended in the hoof
> via the laminar connections.  Those connections can be
> changed/weakened and destroyed  with improper
> shoeing/trimming and also from founder, so we know
> they can be weakened.  Club hooves can be caused by
> injury, so if that is the case, why would they not be
> able to be corrected by proper trimming? 


Because pathologically shortened tendons can only lengthen so far?  I 
would never suggest that it was not worth trying - I would even say that 
  boxy feet can be brought down to a *more* natural angle. I would also 
say that I would never stop trimming any horse correctively - every trim 
is corrective.  I always continue to work toward an ideal.  BUT one 
thing I won't do is predict the outcome that I will get.  If age and 
experience have taught me anything, it's that every day is an 
experiment.  If I lose that humility, I'm toast.

> And, you don't stop just
> because you don't see immediate results.   It usually
> takes one to two complete hoof growths to affect the
> change (which means between 8 months to 2 years)  
> This is not about instant gratification.  


I would be willing to guess that the members of this list understand the 
concept of delayed gratification ... ;)

Karen, can you give us a better description of what you do over time 
with a horse with a rotated P3 that will bring the hoof into alignment? 
  Have you ever encountered a situation like those I've had where the 
hoof will come down and improve to a certain point and then dish, with 
tendon soreness, knuckling fetlocks, and lameness?  What did you do?

> It takes
> time and consistency.  One also has to realize that in
> this process, the laminar MUST weaken.  So, the horse
> cannot be performing endurance or racing or executing 
> technical maneuvers of any sort that would turn or
> twist the hoof capsule in such a manner as to make
> cause more damage to the hoof capsule.   


I guess my approach is a little different.  For a horse with a weak foot 
(like the crushed heels we were talking about), I prefer to use the shoe 
to develop a thick, strong, sturdy hoof capsule.  Going about it this 
way, The horse needs to be in reasonably hard work (say 
moderate-to-hard).  It's the expansion/contraction of the hoof, of 
course, that strengthens the interior structures and promotes 
circulation.  These healthy structures provide good support to the bony 
column, and with the thicker wall all the way around the hoof, I then 
have room to reduce the foot where I need to without weakening the wall 
too much or making the horse prone to injury.  I build the foot first 
before reducing it, which takes just as long - 6 months to a year's 
growth before I'm nailing into that thick, hard wall.

In addition, let me add that shoeing a horse does not preclude me from 
trimming frequently.  I don't trim once a week, but if a horse needs it 
  I will pull the shoes and trim at 3 weeks, and renail into the same 
nail holes.

> This has worked over and over for
> us.  Not just one anecdotal time.  
> 

I don't think there's anyone in this discussion who's talking about 
one-rat experience.  I'm interested in input from all sides.


-Abby


-- 
* * *
Abby Bloxsom
ARICP Certified Instructor
Level III Recreational and Distance Riding
Colebrook, CT USA
goneriding@snet.net