Ridecamp: RE: [RC] [RC] "Horses that kick"

Wow.  Kind of like saying, "My brother's a known ax murderer, but as long as
you don't actually shake hands with him, he probably won't kill you".  I
think we need to take a little more responsibility for our behavior
(including our horse's behavior) than that.  I specifically train my horses
to maintain a certain distance behind the horse in front of us, but there is
no way to avoid getting "too close" if that horse stops on a dime at a
spooky tree limb.  So then, who's "fault" is it?  I  agree with Kat on this
one - a horse that kicks, if not curable, should perhaps find another
career.

My older horse, at his first 50 miler, was a total runaway until the 15 mile
point where he kind of settled down.  Was he ACTUALLY a runaway?  No, I
simply was a pathetically bad rider at the time and unable to understand
what he needed in order to slow down...fatigue slowed him down and that
isn't a valid technique, IMO.

My green horse, having been in a stallion pen most of his life (even though
he was never bred to), had no idea how to socialize with other horses and
initially reacted when another horse got too close by kicking.

This could have become a permanent way of being, but fortunately he was
placed in a whole bunch of different large paddocks with different groups of
horses and he learned how to be a horse, and how be with other horses
without kicking or being kicked.  He did get beat up a little, but that's a
small price to pay for nipping that behavior in the bud.  Would it work on a
horse more set in their ways?  I don't know.  It IS an example of what did
work for this one horse.

Will I still worry about him kicking?  For the next year or so, yes, and
I'll be extremely conscious of where he is and where other horses are.  But
he hasn't kicked once now in 3 months, including that NATRC ride, and many
multi-horse training rides.

Mike Sofen


-----Original Message-----
From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Roby, Diane
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:48 PM
To: 'Jennifer Kurtzhall '; 'katswig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx '
Cc: 'ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx '
Subject: RE: [RC] [RC] "Horses that kick"


 I have a 'known kicker' also, well actually when I bought her I didn't know
she kicked and that fact was never relayed to me, probably cause she was
never exposed to the trail ride with stupid people before.  I've been
working diligently on stopping this behaviour but I'll welcome advice from
any one who knows how you can stop this.

I'll have to agree that if a person should disregard my red ribbon and my
verbal warnings that my horse may kick theirs should they ride up her tail
then so be it.  I do everything possible to keep her rear pointed away but
some people just feel compelled to tail gate.

I'm not going to stop riding my horse on trail rides or training for
endurance because she sometimes kicks.  Personally if another horse is close
enough that I can feel it breathing down my neck, then she's within her
rights to defend herself from possible injury.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Kurtzhall
To: katswig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 5/28/2002 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [RC]   [RC] "Horses that kick"


OK, I have a "known kicker." I am not at all proud of that fact. I have
tried everything with this horse, it is not a matter of control, it is a

matter of competitiveness. He isn't nasty, he doesn't pin his ears, he
will
just kick a horse trying to pass him on either side. He does it with a
"who
me?" look on his face, ears up, happy as can be.
The only thing I can do is put a red ribbon on his tail and keep his
butt as
far away from any other horse as I can.

At a ride, I do not consider myself responsible for the horse behind me
if I
can turn around and touch his nose, (and it's happened.)

If you choose to ignore the red ribbon, then you are responsible.

On the other hand, I keep my horses butt ALWAYS aimed away from whoever
is
passing me, he knows that when leg pressure is applied, it means to
swing
his butt away. He can do it at a walk, trot, and canter.
The one single time he has managed to kick a horse at a ride was at the
start of Tevis and the horses head was almost touching ME! I was furious
at
the other rider, his horse could have stepped on my horses back legs and

ended our ride 2 miles in, and he was yelling at me!

Horses who kick CAN be good endurance horses IF riders take appropriate
precautions. These are big, unpredictable, fast, instinctive, and
dangerous
animals whether their is a red, green,yellow or no ribbon at all.
Just my 1 cent.
Jennifer





>From: Ridecamp Guest <guest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [RC]   "Horses that kick"
>Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 18:38:48 GMT
>
>K S SWIGART katswig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>Starting with the caveat that all horses CAN kick
>and speaking not of them but rather of horses that are "known
>kickers."
>
>I must confess that I am a little bit puzzled by some of the
>stories that I am hearing related to people riding "horses that
>kick" and are complaining about being repeatedly tailgated by
>somebody who does not properly respect that.
>
>I am of the opinion that tying a red ribbon in the tail of my kicker
>is not enough.  If I am riding a horse that I know to be a kicker
>I need to ride in the back.  So one individual could not repeately
>be getting to close to my kicker from behind because I would pull
>over and get out of their way.  Actually, I would probably pull
>over and get out of the way of anybody who was repeatedly harassing
>my horse from behind simply because I would assume that they were
>doing so because they wanted to go by.  However, if I were riding
>a horse that I knew had a tendency to kick I would be doubly aware
>of people coming up behind me and get out of their way before they
>made the mistake of getting too close and risk getting kicked.
>
>Having a horse that kicks is not a license to put a red ribbon in
>the horse's tail and count on everybody to stay out of my horse's
>way.  Having a horse that kicks is a reponsiblity to watch out for
>everybody else and stay well away from them.
>
>
>Granted, it is wise to be aware when coming up behind another horse
>(whether it has a red ribbon in its tail or not); and there is no
>point in expecting a kicker to get out of the way if there is no
>safe place to do so.  However, if I am riding a kicker I need to pay
close
>attention to who is coming up behind me, and get out of their way
>immediately that there is a safe opportunity to do so.
>
>Personally, because people are coming up behind other people all
>the time at endurance rides, and it is difficult to be paying
>attention to the trail ahead and at the same time constantly
>watching for who might be coming up behind; I consider a horse
>that is known to kick to be a poor candidate for an endurance
>horse. I consider it unreasonable to expect other people to
>have to "watch out" for my kicker.
>
>And I DO think that it is reasonable for people at an endurance
>ride to expect to be able to safely approach horses from behind
>without being kicked.  Horses get approached from behind all the
>time at endurance rides, and most endurance horses are perfectly
>comfortable with it.
>
>kat
>Orange County, Calif.
>
>
>
>
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 Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
 Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
 Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
 Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=