Re: Re: DEPRESSED GELDING

["Tracey" <tracey@tbt.co.za>]

Dear Robyn,


> >O.K. there are some training issues to be resolved.>
>
>
> Oh, God, I sense a dissertation looming about the wonders of natural
> horsemanship.  Just promise me you're not into the birdie theory.
>
>Tracey, what exactly is that supposed to mean?


I've had some way-out advice over the years from people into so-called
"natural horsemanship" which had no basis in anything other than their own,
ill-founded delusions.  A friend referred me to a website dealing with
delinquent horses.  Something about, if your horse behaves badly, it means
that he's "lost his birdie", and in one instance suggested he may have left
it in his feed bin.  It was way, way too weird for words.  I'll try to find
the link.


I'm sorry if I appear to be anti natural horsemanship.  I just think that so
much of it is a commercial venture aimed at scamming money off of people who
are experiencing problems with their horses.  A lot of it is common sense,
which the "natural horseman" like to cloak in mystery, to make it appear
that they are in tune with something which no-one else is.


> >>I had a gelding exactly  like this.>>
>
> Bet he wasn't as handsome.
>
>What kind of a low blow is that . . Your ego and sarcarsim is really
>annoying!


Woah there filly!  It was a joke.  Okay, I left off the smiley face - sorry!
I admit I have an ego about Toc, he is seriously handsome, and I'm sorry if
I have offended you in any way - no slight was intended.



>I simply stated that I have a gelding that was also very aggressive, and I
understand what you are going threw. I thought I was doing the kind thing by
offering you advice on what has worked for me. After all ,
you wanted advice right? I guess that you just cannot help people that do
not want to be helped. You are one of them. I am sorry I wasted my time!>


You didn't waste your time.  I said in my post that your advice might be of
assistance to other readers.  I honestly don't believe it would work for
Toc, for the reasons I set out.


> No, it is not dangerous for me, because when I'm on his back I am in
control.  It is dangerous for the pillocks on their pretty ponies who say
"just let them say hello, he'll be fine" as they thrust their mounts faces
into Toc's and then scream in disgust when he rips their lip open.>



>He is obviously very dangerous for you and other people. Doesn't sound like
you have control to me, if you say as quoted above. . . "as they thrust
their mounts faces into Toc's and them scream in disgust when he rips their
lip open." You have a problem lady, and  just don't get it yet, and probably
won't until unfortunately you or someone else gets seriously HURT!!!!!>


I keep my horse's backside and face away from other horses.  It just annoys
me when people come up to him at shows and say "Oh, he's so lovely, let him
say hello to Snowey (or whatever) and then, when I say no, he'll hurt them,
they ignore me and problems like the above arise.  He won't do this on every
occasion - there is occasionally a mare he'll take a shine to (but that's an
embarrassing situation of another nature), but I prefer to avoid incident.
He has never tried to hurt another human being or non-equine animal.


I realise this behaviour could lead to problems (although, thank God nothing
has happened yet) and that is why I eventually went the dP route which it
appears is working.  As I said, he is now fine when I ride out with other
horses, and paddocks with my other gelding.  Moreover, a friend of mine
accidentally ran her horse up his backside in the school on Monday, and Toc
didn't kick out.  100% improvement, if you ask me.  Okay, I wasn't on him,
and if I had been, he might have behaved differently, but only time will
tell.



>And you don't see that there is something seriously wrong with this
picture?>


I think the fact that I used the dP shows that I do.



>That is a cop out. You just prefer the easy way out.>


Yes.  Right.  4 1/2 years down the line, after trying every other thing I
can think of, I've obviously taken a cop-out.  Any penance you would like to
give me?


> Damn.  I hate it when this happens.
>
>Again, your sarcasim is really annoying !!! Maybe someday you'll learn that
ignorance is bliss.>


Listen, and take the following in : I LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA.  Exactly where
would you like me to take my horse for some natural horseman remedial
therapy?????  I have read Mark Rashid, Monty Roberts, John Lyons, Pat
Parelli (ye gads) and some others whose names I can't remember.  I have
tried some techniques, and discarded others.  My main problem with them is
how commercial everything has become, and also that so much of what they
state to be "their" theories is just common-sense, and a lot of it I had
been trying anyway.  I'm sorry if my sarcasm annoys you, but it's a damn
side prettier than my temper, and the suggestion that I'm some kind of lazy
kook who immediately resorts to medical solutions to the slightest problem
is enough to make me lose it in a big way.


> The dP HAS done exactly that.
>
>Then why were you asking for advice?>


Because he had been depressed.  I wondered if it could have been the dP.
Turned out it was a virus.  Don't recall asking for advice about anything
else.


>You are obviously only interested in temporarily solving your horse's
problem, and have a grudge for some reason against training your horse. I
feel sorry for the horse.>


Oh, I wouldn't, he's pretty happy.  And considering I took him practically
OTT from a trainer who was going to shoot him, he was so bad, and can now do
the things I do with him, I hardly think it's fair to say I have a "grudge
against training" him.  I spend an enormous amount of time training him,
being with him, and learning from and about him.  What I have a grudge
against is people who have not seen him, ridden him nor worked with him
suggesting that they can do better.  Consider this an open invitation to
come out and work with my horse.  I'll give you full board and lodging, and
carte blanche to try whatever technique you like, provided you are kind and
consistent, and don't resort to the stick.  Or the birdie theory.

>It is great that you and you horse have such a deep bond. I think we all
strive toward that goal. If he is very happy being alone, and is a danger to
other horses then why don't you keep him seperated from the other horses by
keeping him in his own  paddock? >


Because PG likes the companionship and because it would give me a rest
paddock and because, at the end of the day, Toc needs to be with other
horses.  I feel very privileged to have the bond I have with him, but I
can't be what he needs : a herd.  He needs to learn that other horses can be
his companions, not competition for my affections.  I can't be there with
him 24/7 because I work, but PG can.

>But it obviously has not solved your problems! When the DP wears off you
still have a problem, and it is unfortunate that you do not see it that
way.>


Yes, I do.  I am hoping that, with the dP in action, Toc might slowly
realise that it's kinda fun to be with other horses, and that it won't
affect the way I relate to him.  See : training the brain.  Sometimes, in
order to train the brain, you need to remove any distractions.  I hate to
see ritalin used on kids, but my husband is an Educational Psychologis, and
he says that, sometimes, with certain bad cases of ADD (like mine, he likes
to add, but he's a bitch, so we'll ignore him) you need to give the drug or
the kid just won't be able to learn anything.  As long as you see the drug
as a temporary measure, to facilitate the learning process, and continue
with training, then he says it's okay.  For a long time, I disagreed with
him, as I hate drugs - I won't even take a headache tablet - but I'm
starting to rethink my approach.  My removing the aggression factor, I'm
enabling Toc to socialise with other horses, something he could not do
before.  Hopefully, he'll learn something.


>I never suggested that your horse was not "bright". It is great that he is
so  connected with humans and you. But there is one thing you have to keep
in mind. How are you going to live with yourself if a child is on his back,
and lets say another horse gets loose, or whatever, and Toc does not know
how to handle it?>

Well, to start off with, the only time a child is on his back is when PG is
also on a lead rein, and so is Toc.  I don't let kids ride him by
themselves, for the reasons you mentioned.


>You say that you are in control but from previous statements in the post
you are definately NOT in control. You are worried about establishing "Alpha
status" with the horse because you are afraid that it
will change his personality. That is like a parent saying to their child "It
is OK to hit mommy"and the parent never disciplining the child for fear that
the child may grow up to resent them. Do you realize how foolish you sound?
>

I think you are making a concerted effort at pointing it out, and it's not
what I said.


I just don't like the whole "dominance" theory as a broad - brush approach
to training horses.  It works with PG.  He can be bullied, and it doesn't
worry him.  Toc won't tolerate it.  When I ride him, I convince him that he
wants to do this thing, not that I insist he does it.  That way, we don't
have a problem.  As far as kids are concerned, I can't have any, and have
zero idea how to raise them.  On the other hand, my vet, farrier, and
instructor have all commented that my horse has excellent ground manners, so
I can't be doing a bad job.  By not wanting to overly-exert dominance with
my horse doesn't mean that he gets away with murder - he doesn't - he gets a
smack if he misbehaves.  I just don't believe in provoking an argument in
order to establish my dominance, I prefer to avoid them.  Hence the dP.
Passive learning.


>Is it really OK if your horse decides to take a chunk out of you, or lash
out at you one day?>

Definitely not.  The one and only time he tried to kick me, when I first got
him, he got kicked straight back.  He's never done it since.


>Or maybe he does it unintentionally , you just happen to be the victim in
the middle of a horsefight. >

I don't get into the middle of a horsefight, because until I tried the dP,
Toc didn't paddock with other horses.


>Don't think for a minute that it will never happen.>

Whoops!  Too late.


>You don't have the love affair going with you horse quite like you think
you do.>


Uh-huh.  Invitation's still open.


>There is a way, if you ever care to open your mind, of teaching the horse
to respect you as the "alpha horse" or whatever you care to call it. It is a
simple respect that the horse learns just like he learns stablishing
hierachy with other horses. Horses are very comfortable and PREFER knowing
where they stand in the pecking order.>

I agree with you 100%.

>It is no different with your horse and you. And no, sometimes horses are
not very nice to each other
when establishing this pecking order. It does not change their personality.
>

You obviously haven't watched a horse have its spirit broken by repeated
beatings.  See, with Toc being such a dominant git, this is the approach
everyone seems to think I should take with him.  Beat the crap out of him
till he listens.  Ain't gonna happen.


>Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting violence by any means.>

You also haven't made any concrete suggestions of any other nature, with
respect.  You are making sweeping references to various sources (some of
which I've read) but have not said what you would do.  If you're so sure
that you're right and I'm wrong, then put your money where your mouth is.
Or come on over.


>But your horse is a lot more happier knowing where he stands with you.  >

He's happy now.

>How are they different? What you might want to do is take off the blinders,
and really see what is going on.>


At the risk of lowering the whole tone of this discussion more than we
already have : "right back at you".


Hlala Gahle,
Tracey
>