Re: thumps

[Onefarmgirl@aol.com]

Here are some of the comments I received from Gayle Ecker.  This is a longish 
note.


In a message dated 6/7/00 10:30:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
caspian_uph@hotmail.com writes:

<< 
 Dear Pat,
 Teddy Lancaster forwarded your e-mail on to me.  I would appreciate the 
 opportunity to respond if I may.
 
 >my horse developed thumps.   Ah, the humiliation of
 >the metabolic pull........
 Metabolic pulls should only be humiliating if we do not learn from them and 
 then repeat them.  Clearly, you are not about to allow that to happen.  
 Every ride is different and even if we think we have it all worked out, the 
 circumstances at the next ride can be so different, and that the tried and 
 true just won't work.  Even the best riders have had metabolic crashes.  You 
 are clearly working hard to learn from this one so you can prevent it from 
 happening again.  That is what makes an endurance rider better.
 
  
 With respect to your change in feeding program:
 It is worth having the feeding program analyzed.  There are many times when 
 we think the program is good, but there may be glaring holes once the 
 analysis has been done.  Other horses can be on that diet and do fine, but 
 if the horse is near the optimal limits then one more stress can cause the 
 effect we see.  The problem with dietary changes is that they can take 
 months to years to show a problem (or an improvement).  We have had horses 
 that gradually developed little problems that kept getting worse and they 
 eventually have been traced back to nutritional problems.  If the building 
 blocks are not there, eventually the crumbling starts to show up in 
 competitive situations.
 Not all forage is created equal and it depends on how much of the diet is 
 being provided by the forage vs. the grain ration.  Feeding oats and 
 beetpulp along with pasture will not address the sodium needs of an 
 exercising horse.  Supplementation is necessary for vitamins and minerals 
 for optimal levels.
 
 >I started feeding loose rock salt, only a couple of weeks ago..... my horse 
crunched up quite a bit over several
 >days (and he had been totally ignoring his block salt).
 
 This may be suggestive of a long term sodium deficiency in the diet.   
....some of the blocks have other minerals in them that are not necessary at 
the same level 
 as sodium.  By licking or scraping the block to satisfy their sodium needs, 
 they could take in more than optimal of the other minerals.  The sodium in 
 feeds is low, especially in a diet that has no added sodium.  Mixed 
 commercial feeds often have sodium added, but as was pointed out at the last 
 nutrition conference, for a working horse, it is not enough.  Providing 
 loose salt is the answer to this.
 
  
  >Perform N Win is the elyte mix  which was the subject of radioisotope 
 tagged studies to verify rapid >absorption.
 Yes, the PNW was extensively tested for the absorption of the electrolytes 
 and showed that the electrolytes were in the blood stream in less than 10 
 minutes and plasma volume was restored faster with the electrolyte after 
 exercise.  As with Gatorade, faster gastric emptying and absorption occurs 
 with optimal ratios and concentrations of sodium, potassium and water.  The 
 PNW solution was emptied from the stomach as quickly as the water and was 
 rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream, and just as important into the muscle 
 where the potassium is needed.  Publication of these papers is underway.  
 There is no other electrolyte on the market, (with the exception of 
 Gatorade!) that has been as extensively studied.
 
 
 >The ride:   I'll consider a single one oz scoop of the PNW as "one dose"
 >for the sake of clarity.
 From your definition, a "dose" of PNW should be 3-4 ounces.  The PNW has 
 other sources of carbohydrates and this means that you cannot equate it 
 ounce for ounce to other supplements.  The proper blend of carbohydrates 
 assist in the absorption of sodium, potassium and water.  They also help 
 provide energy for the exercise.  The PNW is formulated for 3-4 ounces per 
 hour of exercise (or sweating).  It also contains forms of salts that 
 provide energy through the Kreb's cycle in addition to the carbohydrates.
 
  >A dose of PNW Friday, and a 2 hour haul to the ride.
 It is recommended that horse receive 2-4 ounces prior to transport, 
 depending on the time and weather conditions and how well the horse 
 transports.  This can be given via syringe after drinking or in the water.  
 All feeds given during transport should be wet or soaked.  The PNW can also 
 be put into the water that is offered to the horse during and after 
 transport (3-4 ounces in 5 L of water or large bucket).
 Many horses arrive at the rides dehydrated and this can cause problems 
 during the ride. 
  
 (There is actually a conference the weekend on the effects of transport in 
 horses and word from the presenter is that we constantly underestimate the 
 effects of transport). Many horses take several days to recover from 
 transport and we have seen some take as long as 7 days.
 
 >Word was that it
 >would be very hot, and that many horses had suffered the heat at this ride
 >last year.  I gave a double dose after vetting in, and a double dose in the
 >morning.
 It is recommended that the endurance horse receive 3-4 ounces prior to the 
 start of the ride to provide a reservoir in the gut and to help encourage 
 drinking earlier.  The horses in our study that received this dose did very 
 well at maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance.
 
>  Drank well on the trail, starting at
 >about 12-14 miles.
 This is great that the horse drank well this early in the ride.  It suggests 
 that the pre-loading may have been effective in encouraging the horse to 
 drink.  This is the optimal time to deliver more electrolytes immediately 
 after consuming water so that you can keep ahead of the electrolyte losses 
 as opposed to trying to catch up, something that is very difficult to do.
 
 
 Did the horse get any electrolytes during the 26 miles?  If not, then this 
 horse is likely building up a deficit at this point.  The majority of the 
 losses are lost during this part of the ride and it is difficult to catch up 
 in the face of continued exercise and sweating.  Sweat losses of sodium 
 could have been around 10-15 grams (depending on many factors of course), 
 but a guesstimate from your reported ride speed.
 
 >Fog had come in during the night and temps were actually pretty cool.
 This also means that the humidity was probably quite high, unless there was 
 strong solar radiation.  Even though cool, horses can sweat more when it is 
 humid.  Some of the rides where we had the highest sweat losses (and some of 
 the worst problems) were the rides that were cool but high humidity.  
 Especially horses that were a bit more heavily muscled or were thicker 
 skinned, these guys have more problems dissipating the heat and therefore 
 have to sweat more, with higher losses in the humidity than in dry 
 conditions.
 
 >slugged up a bunch of water & I gave one dose of Lyte Now.
 I don't have any results from blood work on your horse, but in cases like 
 this where I have followed horses similar to what you have described here, I 
 have seen the following.  The horse has been sweating due to exercise and 
 humidity but not receiving enough electrolytes to compensate.  They drink a 
 large amount of water with no electrolytes in it.  This water intake 
 actually dilutes the blood and lowers the concentrations of the electrolytes 
 in the blood.  I have seen horses start to show clinical signs within 30-60 
 minutes of this and need medical attention.  The Lyte Now would have given 
 the horse about 2-3 grams of sodium.  By this time, the horse could have 
 lost  over 70 grams (and there was likely some residual deficit prior to the 
 ride).  With lower sodium intake, it is unlikely that the horse drank enough 
 to replenish the water deficit too.
 
 >, but did hang on his mouth a bit
 >when other riders passed us.  Drank great on the trail at every
 >opportunity.
 Deficits are likely starting to show up at this point.  Did he get any 
 electrolytes during this time?  If not the water is diluting what may have 
 been low plasma concentrations.
 
 >Led him into the VC.   He drank great, I gave him a double dose of PNW.
 This is not enough electrolytes given the description you have provided.  
 The horse was continuing to build a water and electrolyte deficit.
 
 >Heart rate 60 on arrival.   He was eating well while we waited in line.  
 >Heart
 >rate now down to 54.  Hydration, cap refill, mucus membranes all looking
 >good.   Then the vet (who was Dr. Ribley, by the way) listened to gut
 >sounds, and he was THUMPING.  Yikes.  It was quite subtle at that time.
 It could be that the losses at this point were not enough to cause a problem 
 but enough to show up clinically as thumping.  Electrolytes with the 
 appropriate amount of water were likely all that was required at this point 
 in time.
 
 
 When a horse eats dry food, it can pull large amounts of water from the 
 other tissues. It takes about 90-120 minutes for some of this fluid to be 
 distributed back to the tissues again.  Horses need to replace the water AND 
 electrolytes in order to keep blood volume stable and keep the cells and 
 tissues perfused.  The horse stopped exercising before any real problem was 
 showing.  Thumps can occur and shows there is an underlying water and 
 electrolyte deficit/imbalance.  The sharp-eyed vet picked this out early 
 before your horse ran into serious trouble, which would likely have happened 
 if the horse continued.  A quick recovery may suggest that a horse had 
 enough of a deficit to make recovery difficult but was not life-threatening.
 
 >So............  of course I spoke with both vets, who were completely
 >consistent that this was a  result of low calcium, or (I think) possibly
 >disturbed Ca/magnesium ratios.   They maintained that I couldn't have
 >over electrolyted him.
 Quite correct.  This horse was not over-electrolyted.  From the information 
 given, it was under-electrolyted, under-watered, and would have benefited by 
 having all feedstuffs soaked with water.  It may have started the ride with 
 some degree of dehydration and electrolyte loss.
 
 >Didn't think the change to loose salt mattered.
 Not likely.  In fact, may have helped.
 
 >Dr. Ribley said I probably SHOULD be feeding alfalfa in the day/hours 
 >before
 >a ride (again, for the calcium).
 Good advice, this has been helpful for some horses.
 
 >On Dr. Farr's suggestion I went back and
 >looked for the Ca content of the PNW - not listed, tho it is the 6th
 >ingredient on the label.
 When used at appropriate levels, there is enough calcium to supplement sweat 
 losses.  The form of calcium is also highly absorbable by the horse.
 
 >Guess until I know more, I am done with the PNW during rides.
 As you mentioned, more than one thing changed leading up to the ride.  With 
 several factors different, I cannot point to one factor as the culprit when 
 there are so many things different.  What I can tell you is the dosage of 
 electrolytes was too low.  PNW should be used at 3-4 ounces per hour of 
 exercise, with 3-4 ounces given in water 1-2 hours prior to the event.  This 
 strategy works very well for many horses.  There are some horses that are on 
 a bit higher dose for specific reasons such as more concentrated sweat 
 electrolytes, not good eaters, nervous, etc.  But this has been determined 
 by closely monitoring the horse through proper lab analysis.  The provision 
 of feed to a horse that is dehydrated should be delayed until water and 
 electrolytes have been ingested and then the feed should be wet/soaked.  
 Make the horse go through the water to get to the feed.  As an alternative, 
 mix the electrolytes into the water (at least 3-4 litres) and pour over the 
 feed.  Add apples, carrots or anything else to make it appetizing to the 
 horse.  It is advisable for all to ensure that their horses are not starting 
 rides with a pre-existing dehydration and electrolyte deficit.  They get 
 into trouble sooner in the ride if they are dehdydrated before starting.
 
 If you would like to discuss any of this further with me, I would be 
 interested in doing so.  As I did not see the horse, these comments are 
 based on the many horses we have seen and done performance profiling or 
 other research on.  So, I hope that perhaps you may have more information 
 that could be helpful down the road.  We are all learning about this and no 
 one has all the answers yet.  There are too many variables for one recipe to 
 fit all.
 
 All the best,
 Gayle Ecker
 
 
 Gayle L. Ecker, Hon. B.A., B.Ed., M.Sc.
 Equine Exercise Physiology
 The Equine Performance Group
 4367 Watson Road S.
 Puslinch, Ontario
 N0B 2J0
 Phone:  519-822-2193
 Fax:    519-836-1728
 E-Mail: caspian_uph@hotmail.com
 
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 From: "G. Ecker" <caspian_uph@hotmail.com>
 To: Onefarmgirl@aol.com
 Cc: teddy@runningbear.com
 Subject: thumps
 D >>