RE: RC: RE: forging/club feet

["Kathy Mayeda" <kathy_mayeda@atce.com>]

I agree that vets and farriers all have various opinions and theories.
That's why the x-rays are so important as a baseline.  It is data. I have
found that I need to find my own way, anyway.  I still respect the help I
get from farriers, vets and equine bodyworkers.  But over the past couple of
years I have also read a lot, experimented a lot, and come up with my own
conclusions - some of them against their advice - and have come out ahead
because I got to know my own horse.  And some of it was just dumb luck -
like having a hard-headed farrier who didn't want to shim and talked me out
of it.  And I bet Beau would have continued to be going well if he was still
shimmed, too, because we are talking two entirely different methodologies
here.

Your problems with Explodent sounds like a lot more extreme condition that
we are dealing with here and required a lot more extreme actions.  We are
just talking "gait abnormailty" vs. "not being able to walk"!

Your website is beautiful.  Thanks for sharing.

Kathy

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bette Lamore [mailto:woa@stormnet.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, June 07, 2000 9:57 PM
To:	Kathy Mayeda
Cc:	Tivers@aol.com; WarEglWa@aol.com; ridecamp@endurance.net
Subject:	Re: RC:  RE: forging/club feet

Hi Kathy
I had Moses come down and work on Explodent a few times and work with my
local farrier. The work did well for a while and then we were no longer
fighting rotated coffin but rather contracted tendons. Then we went the
other way with Don Birdsall of  Alamo Pintado affiliation. His theory
was successful for a time and then when that seemed to stop working we
went to Tony Vickers and then Dan Bradley who worked with one of the
heads of Cal Poly Pomona's program.... and on... and on... but we kept
Expo alive and reasonably comfortable (of course, he always had his
mares in his pasture which helped keep his mind off it) for 6 years past
when he probably would have been put down. He was so magnificent and had
such an appreciation for life, we all did our best and the farriers each
had their unique contribution. Not one theory worked forever (even had a
consultation with the hotshot in Texas who developed that special shoe).
It was a constant teeter-totter with Expo in the middle, never
complaining.
The last desperate measure was a double tenectomy by Charlie Boles (at
5AM on the lawn); operation was a success. Expo got up 2 weeks later
from sleeping and shattered his sesmoid--- he had to be put down at that
point to save him from excruciating pain when his leg would
break---inevitable--- so much osteoporosis from the chronic laminitis
(caused originally from a high fever Christmas Eve--- no vet answered
their  phones nor checked their machines until it was too late and he
had sloughed both his front hooves).
So bottom line--- there are MANY farrier and vet theories about angles
and treatments of conditions--- and some are 180 degrees diametrically
opposed-- and they are all by highly respected experts. And they all
worked at different points in the progression of the disease. I am a big
believer in balanced shoeing but I have to tell you, what is balanced in
one farrier's eyes is unbalanced in others'. The best thing I learned
was to have the feet xrayed (if there is a problem) regularly to see
where the coffin bone was and what was going on inside--- not always
evident on the outside until too late, sometimes. I believe that is
probably what Ti was referring to. Very important with laminitis and
apparently club feet in some cases, depending on etiology.
Bette (Yes and I always get misty-eyed when I write about Expo and have
to insert my little tribute to him for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:
http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/Explodent.htm  He was a magnificent
sire and great soul.
Bette

Bette Lamore
Whispering Oaks Arabians, Home of 16.2hh TLA Halynov
(yes, REALLY!)
http://www.arabiansporthorse.com

Kathy Mayeda wrote:
>
> My gelding HAD a club foot.  Had his opposite hoof shimmed for high/low
> syndrome (a la Tony/Moses Gonzales)  by one farrier, who often acts as
> consultants for other farriers.  My horse was going great after that.
>
> But this farrier was 3 hours away and my local farrier started messing
> around with the angulation on his club foot.  The shim eventually came
off,
> because he started to look balanced without the shim.
>
> Had other issues, took a Gait Abnormality class, the instructor/vet
> suggested front lateral x-rays to double check angulation because I
> expressed concern about the change. X-rays taken a couple of months ago,
> they were clean, no angulation problems - almost perfect.  And no club
foot.
> And no special farrier work, just kept on paring down the "high heel" over
> time.  (And chiropractic, dentistry, new saddle and dressage - the
high/low
> syndrome was just part of the overall balance issues).
>
> I did have to talk my new farrier into using a wider web on the hinds.  He
> was a little reluctant to do so because he thought the extra weighting
would
> cause forging.   On the other hand, I read in a book about horses's backs
> (memory lapse here) that wider webs will help the horse use his back more
> correctly and that in itself will help the horse move his front legs out
of
> the way of his hinds.
>
> But it sounded like Beau started forging this last weekend, or we were
> hitting a lot of rocks, I don't know!!!!  He never really forged before
and
> he's still on the same set as we did the 50 with last week without
problems.
>
> There were rumors of Bey Shah lines producing club foots, too. (My guy has
> no Bey Shah in him.)
>
> After this experience I am more likely to say that even if there is
heredity
> that might predispose a horse to club foot,  in my horse's case, the club
> foot can be managed.  An x-ray of BOTH front legs to compare them would be
a
> good idea (and in my case cost the same as one.)  At least I'm wasn't
> wondering about the way the farrier was dealing with angulation anymore.
It
> might take awhile to sort through all the body balance issue related to
> this, but it's worth it to get a sound horse.  Believe me, I've been
> learning a lot over the past few years about  equine body balance, and it
> has FINALLY paid off this year.
>
> Another thing that Diana Thompson told me to look for is to see if the
> chest/pectorals are even looking straight on from the front.  If one side
is
> farther up than the other and/or more or less bulgier than the other,
there
> may be leg length/club foot issues to look at.  And yes, it is true that
the
> club foot reflected which leg would be behind in his habitual grazing
> stance, which is another thing to note.
>
> And I was happy not having the shim to pay for.  I was always paranoid
that
> it would cause "red flags" with ride vets.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Kathy Mayeda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Bette Lamore [mailto:woa@stormnet.com]
> Sent:   Wednesday, June 07, 2000 2:20 PM
> To:     Tivers@aol.com
> Cc:     guest@endurance.net; ridecamp@endurance.net
> Subject:        RC:    forging
>
> Hi Tom
> It is not that unusual to have 2 different front feet in Arabs--- lots
> of theories--- the way they stand when babies, eating off the ground
> with same foot forward, heredity.... Whatever the reason, farriers are
> always commenting to me how they have to work with balanced shoeing to
> keep same angles.
> Michelle Kaplan, the neurokinesiologist who works with the Olympic
> horses taught me to watch horses walk from the back to see if one hip
> rose higher than the other. If it did, then they was something which we
> could work with chiropractically, with neurokinesiology, with TTouch, or
> call in the heavy artillery-- vets with their x-rays and ultrasounds.
> So far as club feet, same as above. Could be use or just plain heredity.
> Real McCoy breeding produced great athletes; unfortunately, the line
> also had more than their share of club feet.
> Bette (whose own feet are one-half size different--- poor
> bloodlines????)
>
> Tivers@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/7/00 9:18:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > guest@endurance.net writes:
> >
> > << My arab forges in rough terrain or when he gets overly excited
> (like
> > during endurance rides!). He does not forge when training or working.
> He has
> > a club right foot and I keep him on a 6 week schedule. It was
> suggested to me
> > to use bell boots, unfortunately I found out on the last 50 that the
> bell
> > boots rubbed his fetlocks raw! Does anyone have any suggestions as to
> how the
> > forging or the rubbing can be prevented? Thank you. >>
> >
> > He forges on the left side? That would be my guess.
> >
> > The right fore is probably clubbed because it is not being used
> > hard--something's wrong on that side.
> >
> > This leaves the left to take up the burden, and the left may dwell on
> the
> > ground (stance phase)  longer. You can reduce stance in the left by
> > shortening or squaring the toe, or by using heavier shoes. However,
> all of
> > this is treating symptoms rather than the underlying problem. I'd
> x-ray that
> > right foot, seeking a longer term solution.
> >
> > ti
> >
> > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> > Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
> > Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp
> > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> --
> Bette Lamore
> Whispering Oaks Arabians, Home of 16.2hh TLA Halynov
> (yes, REALLY!)
> http://www.arabiansporthorse.com
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
> Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
> Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--