Re: Biltmore syndrome darolyn's take

["Tamara Jane Habberley" <tamarahabberley@lineone.net>]

Dont know if its of any help/relevence to you but over here (UK) , we have a
lot of livery yards with fields sewn with cattle grass, that is grass rich
enough to ensure a high milk yield.

The grass tends to have a high clover content and this is rich in both
nitregeon and protein.  Hving moved from a yard with grazing on fields which
were the remenants of a15 century deer park my horse is now on a yard with
fields with circa 1980's cattle grass. Result, very overweight horse with
chip munk cheeks due to swelling of paratoid glands and fat lumps all over =
owner now agreived as she (me) has to get up and muck out as no way can he
live out 24 hours a day as planned!

At the yard next door which ahs very rich clover grass he actually used to
belch when brought in from the field.

Tamara



----- Original Message -----
From: Darolyn Butler <darolyn@swbell.net>
To: Roger Rittenhouse-vmaxept <roger@vmaxept.com>; ridecamp
<ridecamp@endurance.net>
Cc: Paul Gail Zeck <hkranch@worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:19 PM
Subject: RC: Biltmore syndrome darolyn's take


> BILTMORE:  As I watched my 3 100 mile horses graze around the Sunday after
> the Biltmore ride I noticed they would head right for the clover that
grows
> abundantly, (but in patches) among the wonderful Biltmore grass.  I also
> noticed when I expanded my electric fence corral on sunday (after others
had
> left), the horses also headed right for the clover & pigged out on it
until
> it was gone, then went back to the other grass.  15 years ago I lost a
> little mustange horse in the Race Of Champions in Colorado.  We were
running
> back in the teens to twentys, not screaming fast, he made it thru the 1st
> VC, but I noticed when he pooped he only had one or two little balls come
> out, then he started going down on trail before we made the 2nd VC.  I was
> barely able to get him in to the V C #2.  It took 6 hrs to stablelize him
> enuf 2 get him off the mt.  Did a stomach tap in camp & they sent me on to
> major vet clinic.  There it showed he had twisted/ruptured & we elected to
> put him down... autopsy showed gut shut down and enough was dead that
> indicated he was possibly in this state before the race even started.
>
> Why????  Early (in his life) worm infestation damage?, possibly...
> overriding??? don't think so, not a bad pace & early n ride, then I read
an
> article about what clover does to bovine & equine guts... creates lots of
> gas.... hmmm.  The race site was thick with clover... & after they horses
> ate all the clover in their first pen, we moved it to a fresh location the
> nite before the ride started and he had even more fresh clover, plus an
> increase in feeding that I usually give the night before.
>
> Good riders and owners commonly come in early to a major race like this,
> good riders lead their horses around for exercise & grazing the day or two
> before.  A good owner will probably try to set up his pen where it is lush
&
> grassy.  What if..... these very specially taken care of horses (at
> Biltmore... but could happen anywhere-there is a lot of clover available),
> got just enough clover in them to cause a metabolic problem with this
> increase of (is it Nitrogen vets?... what does cause this problem?... been
> too many years since I read the article).  Could this be the "Biltmore
> Cramp"?
>
> I had three seasoned horses start the ride,  rode 1st loop together,
vetted
> almost the same, 2nd loop Razzmatazz fell back a bit, but still strong,
> Albanet & Eldans Alad still equal in energy & pace, 3rd Loop Razz seemed
to
> hit the wall, very uncomfortable, (he may have had access to more clover
> than the rest), he stopped eating, we let him rest for an hour or so & his
> attitude picked up, finally started eating, & he went out & finished the
> race very carefully and slowly-31st place, 4th loop Eldans Alad started
> feeling a little blue.... he had the next most access to clover (in the
> pens), they slowed down a bit, then he recovered & finished in 16th
place...
> now Albanet, who had less access to any clover ran pretty strong all day,
> (6th place).   I personally feel that (meaning no scientific data to back
it
> up), the amount of clover they ate would not have affected them without
the
> stress of the competition.  But couple that little change with the stress
&
> you start getting problems that you might not otherwise.  Question for all
> of those horses that experienced this weird cramping..... Did your horse
> have access to the clover in his temporary corral... did U lead him around
> thurs. & Friday & let him graze in clover patches....?  See how scientific
> I'm getting?  Its a survey/study.   I just wish I had done bloodwork on
the
> three of them.   What do you think Roger & Vets????
> djbd
>
>   CYPRESS TRAILS:  SPECIALIZING IN ADVENTURE TRAIL RIDES, ENDURANCE RIDING
&
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(The
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> 21415 Cypresswood Dr. Humble, TX 77338
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>                              e mail: darolyn@swbell.net    Web Page:
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>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Rittenhouse-vmaxept <roger@vmaxept.com>
> To: RideCamp <ridecamp@endurance.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 2:31 AM
> Subject: RC: Biltmore Post Race Analysis OMNI
>
>
> > BILTMORE- Metabolic DNF- OMNI
> > Today I was suppose to be at the SETC in Clemson Univ. However, after
> > getting home late Sunday (9pm), I thought it was best to stay home and
> > observe OMNI for any complications.
> > After my initial post, I made a detailed list of notes and ideas, also
> > had a good session with Carol about what went on from the time I left
> > until Race day. She said I told her  I was going slow, so she did not
> > need to come  and crew- guess I lied, a crew would not have helped
> > anyway - and really did plan on doing it fast-- as in about 8-9 mph or 6
> > hrs ride time. I never tell anyone my plan before a race.
> >
> > A RECAP- After 38 miles - loop 2 Omni clears VC 2 and starts a mild
> > colic. Lack of response to preliminary treatment, 2 dose Banamine and
> > about 4 gal water/lytes by tube, did not correct the problem. Suspecting
> > a full gut shutdown he was placed on IV fluid and Ca. Came out of it in
> > good shape after  30 liters.
> > METABOLIC
> > VC 1 all A except gut B- no cri - ate well and drank -from trough and
> > buckets with local water. Ate back at trailer
> > VC 2 all A except gut - B- cri 52/52 showed pre colic response and did
> > not drink or eat.
> >
> >  BLOOD WORK
> > Sure was glad this machine was brought in by Dr Mike Foss. We may think
> > about finding out how we can fund one for the SE rides. It would REALLY
> > show some great information.
> > Glu 138   Bun 15    Na 141    Tco2 41     Augap 8     Hem 37    Nbt 13
> > Pc02 53.8   Hc03 39   Beocf 16-- these were reported to be all ok. I am
> > not sure what they all mean. The parms that were out of spec;
> > pH 7.471 - very slight alcholdohysis- (spelling )  but you would expect
> > this since most endurance horses have low pH at the end of a race.
> > Cl 96 - norm 100-110
> > K 2.6 - norm 3.3-5.5  for this machine
> > Glucose was high because the K was low. One of vets can explain this
> >
> > Potassium and Chloride losses = electrolyte problems.
> >
> > PRE-RACE PROTOCOL - went over this before- small doses of electrolyte
> > before travel and after arrival on Thursday. One oz. Gave total of 4 oz
> > on Thursday, along with 30 cc Pro-botics liquid each time.
> > FRI same  - small doses through the day - Total 5 oz
> > Pre-race 2 oz 1/2 hr before start.
> > I have used this protocol at the last 3 rides.
> >
> > FEEDING. He was alone at this race. He gets 'worried' and does not eat
> > or drink well. I felt the small does of electrolytes through the day
> > would get him to drink more. I bring my own water. I feed small feedings
> > of his normal feed during the day - no oil or fat (rice bran) was added.
> > Beetplup water and the mix. Added VitE/SE at normal levels. No Carbo
> > supplement. Hay was alfalfa and the Dengie Hi-Fi. Not feed at home in
> > large quantities. Same as was done at the previous rides. At Million
> > Pines he ate very well, had his buddy, never really quit eating, I fed
> > him with a nose bag to keep the other horse from getting his ration. He
> > ate hay all the time. So this was quite different. I believe is started
> > on a 1/2 full tank.
> > He did drink some amounts of the local water- City water with chlorine
> > and ? He ate lots of grass, a better grass then he has at home
> >
> > ISSUE 1- Lack of eating caused the gut to be empty- less then was
> > required to keep it full. Rectal exam showed it was empty.
> > ISSUE 2- What caused the K to be so low. Could it be bound somehow? MOST
> > of the metabolic pulls were all  low in K.
> >
> > Almost no one used the same method of electrolyte protocol. We all fed
> > different products and various amounts.
> > OMNI drank a fair amount of water from the troughs around camp on both
> > days.
> >  Last year at the Fall Biltmore  - we did not use any 'local' water for
> > drinking.
> > Nor was there this much rich grass. We did NOT see the pulls in the fall
> > either.
> >
> > ISSUE - COULD the water or the grass set up a situation to create a
> > problem. How many riders did or did not use the local water or let them
> > chow down on the great grass. I don't recall I let our horses drink that
> > much 'local' water at other Biltmore rides. I wonder if a tank of 'wild'
> > water for drinking may be better.
> >
> > WEATHER- I have been to hot rides this spring, under winter coats. Both
> > of the first rides were very warm for Feb and March. The last ride was
> > not real warm but we went fast. I condition in the mid day and go fast.
> > I really do not want to use the weather for  a reason, it just did not
> > seem all that bad for the first 2 loops.
> > ISSUE - Horses are all in the hot sun with very little shade. Omni was
> > in the sun all  day. Maybe should put a tent or shade next year.
> >
> > SPEED- Could have slowed down. HR was of course higher then previous
> > races, but not out of acceptable limits. He never went anaerobic. Close,
> > but I kept him under 175. He was working at aggressive levels around 145
> > to 165. NOT out of range for him for the  speed and effort or his
> > condition. I base this on the fact he recovered within minutes of
> > arrival, even when he was starting to colic, he showed no signs of over
> > use. He did not pee blood, had no muscle cramps or tie-up. Would be nice
> > to had muscle enzymes. His working HR levels on loop2 were acceptable
> > and lower. His trot at the 10 mph pace was about 145 to 150 with canter
> > HR drops to 130. Slow down to easy trot - HR dropped to 110-125. Walk
> > under 90 within less then a minute. I estimate his anaerobic threshold
> > to be about 180, Based on 80% of his max HR of 220. Our conditioning
> > program has progressed to miles of hard trots and canters and short
> > gallops. I find I have to push more on the same roads and trail to keep
> > the HR up to a good working level. I cannot fully discount speed as the
> > cause but I doubt it was the major issue. We could have slowed down -
> > and may still had the problem- like out on the trail.
> > 'Going to fast'  is relative- right, you don't know where that is until
> > you pass that point. He never asked to quit- I never asked him to move
> > out. I was actually holding him in for the whole 38 miles.
> > He did not have the classic  Exhaustive horse syndrome. Therefore I do
> > not consider he was 'over-ridden'
> >
> > ON TRAIL ISSUES
> > He drank well on trail- there were times he wanted water but the crowds
> > were too much for him, and he stopped. Some riders can't wait their turn
> > at water, so we moved on to other sources. I felt he was drinking ok.
> > Ate grass on loop 2  going up the Mtn, I hand pulled as much as I could-
> > on foot- and he ate all  I fed him - as well as taking some on his own.
> > Electrolytes, for on trail I use LYTE and NOW paste. I have been using
> > this for years. I believe this is about the best pre-mixed product there
> > is. It does seem to work.
> > ISSUE - I only gave 1/2 a normal dose on each loop - one time.. that was
> > too little.
> > Drank about a gallon or more of water from trough just before VC2- it
> > was not cold.
> >
> > ELECTROLYTES - we try to put all the blame on this - Gave too much or
> > not enough or not often enough.  Used a product that was unbalance made
> > from 'rocks', used one that was harsh and caused mouth burns- then he
> > wont drink or eat. Messed with the pH balance of the guts. And on and
> > on. We had enough 'west ' riders and a vet-  to know we have to give
> > larger then normal doses of electrolyte then other areas and I sure
> > don't want to hear - 'I should not use any' - my horse would be dead I
> > bet. The problem is - they all require something and in unknown amounts.
> > How do I know the pre- mixed commercial product I use is correct for my
> > horse under the conditions of the competition. Like if I added LITE salt
> > would my K levels be higher? The muscle contractions in the guts shut
> > down because of the loss of K. SO what happened first, was he low in K
> > before the race - did he NOT keep the GI track full because he was
> > stressed? or in some other imbalance..   then the situation just
> > snowballs.. no eat no drink - get empty - gut get  unbalanced
> > electrolytes.  Blood test BEFORE the race would be great. I sure would
> > like to get him tested at he next one, would be very helpful with a
> > horse that had a problem before.
> > IF a horse sweats water and electrolytes as we are told, they loose the
> > ions all together, he can't sweat out Ca or Na and keep K, right - no
> > selective process here, so where did the K go with all these horses?
> > Gave 2 oz at VC 1, should have given more?
> >
> > PROBOTICS- Can too much cause a problem? I have seen the use of these
> > types of supplements bring a horse out of the dumps within 30 minutes,
> > but they were NOT in colic mode. The idea is the use of substances to
> > keep the active bacteria alive and well will keep the guts working.
> > SO what happens first -the natural contractions-- can't spell that one
> > -- peristolius?? stops then the guts quit and dry up.. or the micro
> > flora dies and the guts stop, or is it either or both, caused by
> > different failures.
> > Getting too hot in the guts- going too fast over heating will kill the
> > bacteria then digestion stops.
> > Loss of K will slow down or stop contractions. If they do not drink or
> > eat the guts stop working - nothing to process. A real balancing act.
> >
> > MORE ISSUES. At Million Pines there was NO grass  - the water was from a
> > well. He ate hay and drank 'home' water except for the VC.  Gut was full
> > from the start, he  ate well at all the VC
> >
> > Would he had  done better IF I had fed some Carbs- to kick start the
> > desire to eat. I felt that did happen at the other rides.  I gave the
> > electrolytes mixed with CC and waited for him to start to eat.
> > Even  if I gave small amounts pre ride - not pre-load but enough to keep
> > the appetite active- would that had helped? Since he was not eating
> > well, would the induction of simple carbs helped to keep the guts
> > working and thus full?
> >
> > The loops were shorter at all the other rides. Drank and got
> > electrolytes more often, got time to rest more often. Long legs between
> > VC at the speed - takes it toll, This type of problem happens at the
> > OD100  - use to be 25 miles until the first VC. I think the longest leg
> > is about 15 miles now.
> >
> > WORMING  This has been beat to death. Yes I have been using Strongid-c
> > for 10 years--or whenever it came out. I need to take another fecal
> > exam. The issue of encysted  worms may be a problem, Are the spores
> > coming out now -at this time of the year? Based on the comments about
> > the 2X5-5day safe-guard treatment, this is the time of year to do it
> > before they all are triggered to come out as larvae.
> > If a survey is taken - would be nice to know the worm protocol. I plan
> > on doing the safeguard program later this week.
> >
> > TRAILER  He seemed to NOT like hauling free in the back stall. He would
> > shake and act stressed when he had all that room to move and turn
> > around. I hauled him in reverse  slant load for the last 3 rides. He
> > traveled better. ate drank etc. No nervous actions. I modified the
> > trailer with a new rear back wall and padding.
> >
> > PLAN OF ACTION.
> > HA
> > Well, first I will not make any  radical changes.
> > Next ride is 3 weeks- Liberty Run. He gets the week off, and startup
> > next week, maybe Sunday- for a slow work, then see how he goes after
> > that.
> >
> > I will think about adding lite salt- but how much. Too much will cause
> > more problems.
> >
> > QUESTION - What is the brand and or formulation the vet- Ken and Todd
> > used to add to the stomach drench? I use to feed a product called
> > ELECTRADE IV 4000 back in the 'old' days before we 'KNEW ' what to give.
> > I bought it from my vet. I never had problems until I started to use the
> > home made mixes.
> > I also did real well on the original ENDURALYTES, developed 10 years ago
> > by Dr Waldron.
> >
> > I really do not know what to 'fix' because I don't know what is broke.
> > Since he will have a buddy- I expect him to eat well.
> >
> > I do plan to go slower, but not 12 hrs. Will play it as he goes on.
> > I will ask Dr Ken to bring blood test kits and  try to get samples
> > before, at 25m and the end take, if time permits.. The data will be
> > skewed since the blood will sit on ice  for a few days, but it may show
> > something ,at least comparisons. Should at least be able to get before
> > and after tests.
> >
> > I have gone over all my notes- appears I have covered all the points I
> > had. Not sure what I missed.
> >
> > Post status. I was checking on him all day. He still likes me 0- comes
> > to me when called. Came in a running tonight, nickered and flanging his
> > head around.. ate about 6 treat cookies he would NOT eat at the ride.
> > Full of grain and electrolytes and honey etc.. go figure..
> > Hope for some POSITIVE feedback.
> > Get to see our name on the DNF list next month in EN  - with a big M
> > That's about it, if  I think of more issues point I will  post. Ask
> > questions for more info if you need it , constructive comments only --
> > please.
> > Thanks hope this gets some better technical conversation going and less
> > bashing.
> > Roger
> >
> >
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